Installing My New Getrag 5 Speed this weekend, few questions
 

Well I got my hands on a Getrag 717400 5 speed that will be going into my 1983 300TD this weekend. I've already done a 4 speed 240 swap, but that transmission is in pretty bad condition.

This should be a fairly easy job since I've already installed the pedal assembly, clutch hydraulics, and have been down there before. But i do have 2 questions about this new 5 speed:

• What type of throwout bearing should i use? i have 2 types from a 240. You can see in the pictures one is longer
• Any advice on oil for the Getrag? I was thinking royal purple manual tranny fluid. Anyone know how much this 5 speed holds?

I'm fairly certain that the tranny uses ATF.
gear oil would be WAAAAAY too thick.
some use 30weight motor oil in it with success.

Well be careful, I put 30W in the Getrag in my 735i and it shifted quite poorly.

The two throwout bearings are for iron vs aluminum case transmissions. I assume since the 5 speed is also aluminum it would use the same as the 4 speed aluminum, since they're pretty similar from the front.

I think Royal Purple recomends their Synchromesh in these transmissions. I think that is what I used in my 240D 4 spd. Were did you get the 5-spd from? Also, check Amsoil.
Tom

In my notes I have PN 12020-11978 as the throw out bearing for the later one piece tranny.

I used too use Amsoil ATF but have switched to Mobil 1 5W-30 Synthetic Oil in my 5 speed trannies.

Here is a post that a friend send my way some years ago which my be of interest to the Getrag 5 spd owners. I have this noise in two of my Getrag fivers and switching to the heavier oil helped.

Subject: five spd tranny, clanking rattle at idle WITH THE CLUTCH ENGAGED.
Cc:
Bcc:
Attached:
Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Ijust got this email in response to an inquiry that I sent to "Metric Motors" about working on
transmissions. I honestly can't remember how I found them. But anyway, this sounds like a pretty
definitive answer:
My note to them was as follows:
"I understand that you specialize in BMW, but hope you might have information on this problem. I
have a Euro-market Mercedes 300d, 5 cyl diesel, natural aspirated, with 5 speed Getrag 00
transmission. Transmission works fine, but makes an irritating clanking rattle at idle WITH THE
CLUTCH ENGAGED. I seem to recall reading that Porsche 944\'s had a problem like this with a
Getrag 5-speed.
Questions:
1) Are you familiar with this transmission? (I don\'t have a model number, but could get one.) Is this
a familiar problem?
2) Can you get parts for Getrags of this age?
3) Would you be willing to repair it? I live in Maine, but it\'s light enough to ship.
4) If the answer is \"no\" to #3, can you recommend a shop (hopefully east coast) that is familiar
with these.
Thanks very much."

Their response:
"Hello SEa,
What you are describing is a Reverse Idler Gear - also know as an Idler Gear or Auxiliary Gear.
It's a common problem with Getrag Transmission. Among BMWs, the 260, 240 and 280 and 250
all share this same problem. From the factory, there is a shaft in the Tranny, that supports the
Reverse Idler Gear and it is NOT shimmed properly against the case (too much clearance.)
Somewhere after 125,000 to 150,000 miles and/or without regular oil changes, the rattle develops.
To fix it (in a BMWanyway), the entire transmission must be disassembled and reshimmed. Your
transmission won't break or prevent you from getting home but it is annoying.
All that said, we do occasionally receive inquiries like yours - about working on Getrags for other
car models.
Sadly, it is not that simple. Our expertise is only with BMWs so we won't be able to do the repair
for you.
Also, we really don't know of a shop that can.
Sincerely, Teddy Rowe"

Excellent advice to all! Ah yes, this makes sense about the throwout bearing. I'll use the one i have for the aluminum transmissions.

Ok good to know about the oil. I'm thinking i'll with Mobil 1 Synthetic... Up here in the cold it's necessary to have oil that moves in the cold.

I bought the transmission off the parts thread. It came with a 617 manual FW which i'm picking up from the machine shop today. I have a front driveshaft piece from a factory manual wagon. I HOPE it fits...it was just a hair short when i put in the 240 manual. This one is a little longer so i'm thinking it's going to work

my calculation put the 5spd drive shaft for a 300D at 15.75 and for the 4spd at 19.5, you will need to get it shortened again for the 5spd

if you have the 240D 5spd shaft it is 20.25 which would make it also too long

Dang. The piece i have is from a 79 4 speed manual 300TD. I bought it off craigslist a year ago. It was barely short when I put the 240 manual into my wagon, i had to get a 240 piece modified.

So the piece that's in there now might work too, i was just hoping a factory piece would slip in. Then my wagon would almost be like a euro 5 speed manual.. .just have to get shopping for some bumpers :cool:

I dont know about the wagons. maybe the front is different, but the 5spd one is definitely not going to be the same as the auto or 4spd one. here is a reference of how the DS measurements were taken

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/1691185-post19.html

Sounds like your getting it together, The flywheel is nice to have. Like I said, I have no idea where that post about the rattle came from, But I have the rattle in two trannies and the heavier oil helped. Good luck on the drive shaft thing.
I put in the wrong throw out bearing when I swaped in a 5 spd and had to pull the tranny twice before I figured it out, DOH

Well I got the noisy 240d transmission out. Not too many issues, getting quick at it now :eek:

My camera is out of batteries so apologies for the horrible quality phone pictures. I put the Getrag next to a 240d aluminum transmission. With my manual wagon front shaft I put it on there, looks like it's a little less than 3 inches longer than my current setup. Dang, looks like i'll have to find somewhere to get the front section cut. A friend did my 240 section, however this Getrag is nice and I want to have a professional cut/balance done now for the front piece.

The slave on the getrag matches the aluminum 240 transmission, the cast 240's have a different one.

The 5 speed came with a different transmission mount than the auto 240 mount i was using. Bolt holes match up but definitely different. It's on the right...

When i got the transmission off it looks I have a pretty decent oil leak. Right on top of the back of the block there was a bunch of oil. Any ideas what could be leaking?

One other little glitch I ran into doing the swap was the alignment pin on the aluminum adapter plate between bell-housing and eng. You may need to swap that also, or my not apply to your cars. I just remember having to go back a redo some work because of that pin.

Great information, you had me worried but thankfully I got mine fit up today without need of an adapter plate. Got a lot done today, here's the list:

1. Removed pressure plate and clutch disk
2. Removed old 240d flywheel
3. Installed new 617 manual flywheel
4. Reinstalled pressure plate and clutch disk using an alignment tool
5. Removed 240d 4 speed shifter
6. Installed w201 5 speed shifter. Two holes line up perfect, cinch them down to find where the 2 new holes need to be. Drill holes and install shifter. The back up light switch doesn't use the same connector for the 2 shifters, but it's two wires to splice and it working.
7. Filled Getrag 5 speed with Mobil 1 synthetic ATF
8. Installed Getrag. Phew, this was WAY heavier than the 240d transmission!
9. Installed transmission mount. This went up easy with a jack under the back of the transmission.
10. Installed a slave cylinder, was slighter different shape than 240's
11. Bolted up the center drive shaft bearing to get a measurement.

Ugh, you guys were right the front drive shaft section I have won't work. The front section needs to be 17 inches, the piece i have that i thought would fit is 18.5 inches. Now i need to figure out how/where to get it cut and balanced. Any ideas?

I need to hook up the shifter linkage. I'll get that done hopefully this week, looks like the rods need a couple inches off each and then threading.

Two steps between this wagon and a functioning 5 speed.... drive shaft and shift rods!

When I cut and threaded my shift rods. I noted how far into the screw on connector the threads lined up. then unscrewed the end, placed it onto the shifter, layed the shift rod on top so it over laped. then marked it with a felt marker, and made my cut. then when you thread it and screw it back together, it should be lined up as before.

http://12.153.160.115/images/catalog/tn/1152600353.jpg

Charlie

How much did you pay?

I am using royal purple and recommend against it. Next flush will be mobil1.

Excellent advice, thanks. I'll hopefully be lining those up tonight...we'll see.

Unfortunately i've made 2 stops at drive shaft shops around the Twin Cities today, both have said they cannot modify my driveshaft.

I think you'd better be certain of what fluid is called for by the manufacturer of the tranny. Amsoil, Royal Purple, Redline etal make fine products. However those products may or may not have the correct properties for your application.

Comments like "I ran XXX without problems." don't carry much weight because 1. the sample size is too small, 2. even a catastrophic failure, wouldn't necessarily be properly diagnosed with cause determined. Talk to the fluid manufacturer and tranny manufacturer.

Regarding the drive shaft, a search for custom driveshaft will likely turn up a shop that can shorten & balance.

You can always try and modify it yourself.

YoungBenz did it.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/241480-4-speed-300sd-works-3.html

and I did it.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/276987-installing-new-engine-manual-transmission-my-sd-12.html

Crashone also did it... hes the one who gave YoungBenz and I the idea to try our hand and making our own drive shafts.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/262082-300sd-4-speed-conversion-has-begun.html


As for the shift rods. I installed the ones I had, and they all lined up perfectly, but were 6.75" short. I made punch marks on the rods to make sure i lined them up correctly (so they didn't twist) then I cut them and added exactly 6.75" to each rod. welded it up and then installed them... they lined up perfectly, no adjustments needed.

"Bearing Service" in Portland Or (503 222 1366) is the only place I'd go to out here on the coast. There must be a qualified place closer to you. Actually I would ship it to them.

I find it hard to believe that driveline shops wont work on them. Place right down the street from me did it and did a good job of it. Is the autotrans DS not the same as the 5 spd? Same mount and all......

Thanks for all the great tips. Yeah i find it hard to believe they won't work on it either, i guess maybe 3 shop will be a charm. If not, I might send it out... I don't have the tools or skills for a good DIY shortening.

Does anyone know which shift arm does what gears? It's not listed in the manual i have. The rear arm looks like 5 and R. Not 100% sure on the front two. My transmission looks just like the one attached (pic from google search).

Thanks, hoping to get working on this tonight!

Some intense foreign language googling and i believe i found it. This look shift diagram for a getrag 717.400 look right to you guys?

Looks right. They have a diagram in the Haynes manual as well.

Looking in my "Technical Data Passenger cars" Jan 1983, shows the same diagram for the 5-spd 717.40

Charlie

Thanks guys. Well the linkage is going to take a little more time than i expected, the 5 and R piece is quite a pita when adapting a w201 shifter. I was having trouble getting it to clear the 3/4 gears line, you can see the end hanging in the photo i took while lining them up. The shifter i have seems stiff too, i'm going to look into bushings for it.

Good news is a friend called and he knows someone who can do the DS correctly. I drew up a mockup to send along with the DS section to make sure it's cut right.

those rods are a PIA even when you are using stock length, but youll get it.

be careful, the nut you are measuring to moves in and out. I always measure to the flange.

also, try to talk to the guy in person. I had a 240 shaft, on my picture I had the CD shaft and the modified CD, guess which one they made first. I had to go get another shaft from the yard. I would only put the final dimension you want on the drawing so there is no question

Glad to hear I'm not the only one futzing with those shift rods. There are some tight clearances up there!

Good advice, thanks. I spoke to the guy this morning, he owns an auto salvage yard in Iowa. He said in 30 years he's only had one drive shaft he couldn't shorten. I sent him pictures of it last night, he thinks he'll take off the transmission end of the shaft. Slightly turn down the end that the flex disk is attached to so that it will slide into the shortened tube snugly. Then weld and balance. He said likely it will be $60-80.

And if that doesn't work he said there's always plan B, he can make it work somehow. He told me a few stories about building funny cars, he used to make all sorts of stuff racing with his son. Glad to have found this guy!

exactly what they did to mine.... twice :rolleyes: works just fine. He even loosened up the welded on u-joint on the rear shaft and said good for another 100K


fwiw, I have a tool for these clips that I use. Its a pick that is about .100" diameter and 6" long going to a sharp point. It is bent at a 90 degree at the sharp end. You slip this in the clip and it opens the clip. you can then reach it up without using your hands and snap it on the end of the shift rod, then the pick slides out sideways and viola, installed. this has been a lifesaver for me. it also works great for removing those tricky little buggers. Ill snap a picture when I get home. from what I remember it was a harbor freight piece, maybe $1

Ah the pick sounds like the right tool. I was doing a number on my fingernails

Well I mailed the shaft off today... so probably no progress for at least a week, maybe 2. Good things to those who wait!

Those flat clips are definately a PITA to get on. I usually slide a flat screwdriver up along one edge to spring it open a little. position it with the screwdriver, get the hole over the shift rod. then try to hold the back side of the clip, and pull it down to snap it on. then after the 15th time of it springing off, droping it, can`t find where it went :mad:.............

sometimes the dang things will snap on and other times:mad: :o :( :eek: :rolleyes: :confused:.

I would be interested to see the pick you use, anything to make it easier.

Charlie

Here's a few pics of the w201 5 speed shifter mounted. It doesn't like going left for 1 &2 and right for 5 &R. And that is with all the rods detached... Could this be a bushing issue or perhaps a just take it apart and grease somewhere? Might as well do that while the DS is getting cut...

(yes that's jb weld on the reverse light switch don't ask why :eek:)

Sounds like an internal failure in the shifter. The 5 spd shifter is wierd as it tilts mid shaft...

All the levers need to lined up for the shifter to move side to side, no?

used RP in an old Muncie transmission ( different app I know), but never again.

Your shifter mechinism could just be dry or gumed up with dirt. It is open to the elements under the car.
I took a 4 spd shifter apart, washed everything in a pan of gas, blew it out, and greased it with synthetic grease. biggest problem I had is getting the springy washers back in.

there are some plastic bushings that could be worn. If you have the VIN# of the vehicle the trans/shifter came out of, go to the dealer and maybe the parts are available.

Charlie

Excellent advice guys. It very well could be i didn't align the levers close enough, i didn't know about the putting a drill bit through them.

I signed up for the EPC last night, whoa that is a great tool. Feel dumb not having done that already...

Looks like there is a rebuild kit for this shifter, it's number 20 in the attached photo and comes with bushings and other parts $60 (2012601839). There are also two bearings $15 for both ( 2012670505 and 2012670605).

We'll I'm going to align those shifter rods, see what happens. Even if it works i'm thinking of doing the rebuild kit, i hope to be driving this car for a long time.

heres the tool I use. I mispoke when I said I used the 90 end. I got the tool and remembered I use the straight end. You push it in to spread the clip, place it on the rod, roll it away into the fold area of the clip which allows the clip to go on the rod groove then pull it out. I actually use it closer to the tip. If you could get a handle on it I but a 2 penny nail would work too. Its about an 1/8 inch diameter in the area I use it. It makes the clip installation easier than a screw driver since it does not block the hole like a screw driver blade does.

I have one of those,didn`t think about using it. you are right about a screwdriver blocking the hole. I use a small narrow one, and run it up the right side in your picture above.

I also have one of those picks with the "J" hook on the other end. got it to remove the "C" clips in the Differential. clamp a largwe Vice-Grip on the other end and pull. the Crappy Chinese tool pulls apart:(.
$5 at kragans and $1 at a flea mkt/swapp meet for the same tool.

I probably should order some new clips for the shift levers instead of trying to use the old used one`s from the Junk yards. they loose their tention, and then trying to slightly tweek them back into shape, end up making them too hard to get back on. found one in the driveway the other day, hope it is one I dropped instead of...............:eek:


Charlie


Charlie

Good tip, I have one of those picks which I'll try next time instead of the screw driver. :)

any progress on the 5 speed swap? Did they get your driveshaft back to you?

FYI, the rebuild kit for the shifter is available from the classic center for I think about 80 bucks. Comes with all new bushings, yoke, little pin and bushings for the reverse lockout, and other stuff. Its pretty much brand new once you use the kit. I though it was worth it, even at that price

Finally in and driving, NOISE, UGH!
 

Sorry for the hiatus, life got in the way as well as waiting for parts.

I spent most of yesterday and all of today, got the car all together and running...but...noise! It sounds like a washing machine agitator, louder at low speeds and gets quieter the faster you go. Fastest I went was 50 and the sound/vibration had dropped a lot.

My thoughts are:

• Could it be the flex discs? I reused them and they aren't in the best shape.
• Carrier bearing, new but not MB OEM.
• Clutch internals, Is it possible I installed the clutch disk wrong and it rubs?

Other than the noise the car drives and shifts excellent. I fixed the 190 shifter with the exact kit your talking about, pics attached. It was a pain to use the 190 5 speed shifter with the getrag, worked out fine but had to do some fun shift rod manipulation!

Long term update
 

It was the DS, the guy who cut it didn't balance it correctly. I brought the car to an MB indy here, he had the DS sent to a shop in California.

Got it back in and all was good...until the mechanic forgot to latch the hood on his test drive! UGH! It messed up the hood pretty bad, hinges and smashed the windshield.

All is fixed now, car looks and drives great! The whole saga took nearly 7 weeks, the shop's insurance paid for fixing the car of course. Now I can finally cruise smoothly in my wagon...got it back yesterday...man I missed that car! 5th gear is quite nice too, it really drops the rpm's down on the freeway...can't wait to see mileage.

What a saga, I would imagine your glad to finally get on the road. You'l love that TD on the highway. I just got back from a road trip to Ca, got 34.6 MPG, but it went down when I had to use the AC, but no complaints:D

I have made many road trips with my 5 spd 240D, and dont get me wrong, I love that car, but the TD is a real highway cruiser with that 5 spd. The 240D is more fun to drive on the two lane roads around here tho;)

Happy motoring

I'm glad every thing work out for Kavi. Nice looking wagon

Whoa! That's amazing 34.6! I can't wait to do a road trip, thanks guys!