Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-10-2011, 03:47 PM
rickmay's Avatar
like music to my ears
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago area, soon to be in lower taxed area
Posts: 117
1983 240D WHEEL ALIGNMENT (new purchase)

My question relates to many Mercedes in this age area.

I seem to remember that my 300D 's front wheels leaned into a turn, particularly, when parking, when you have the steering full right or left. Make a right turn and the wheels lean to the right.
Make a left turn and the wheels lean to the left.

Shouldn't both wheels lean INTO THE DIRECTION OF THE TURN? I ask, as I just had a whole new front end put on.

After getting the car back, if I turn the steering to full left, the right wheel is pretty much straight up and down. The left wheel is leaning to the left, and it seems to be too much lean.

Thoughts anyone?

Rick

Attached Thumbnails
1983 240D WHEEL  ALIGNMENT (new purchase)-mercedes-benz-internet.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-10-2011, 04:27 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Hi Rick,

Welcome to the forum.

You'll find that one wheel will lean more than the other on a full lock.

You can actually check whether your car has been set up correctly if you have a bit of patience and time - see the method of measuring caster in this thread:-

How I adjusted the toe in / out, camber and caster on my W123 300D
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:00 PM
rickmay's Avatar
like music to my ears
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago area, soon to be in lower taxed area
Posts: 117
Thx Army

I have a 90 day warranty on the alignment, so I have a little time left.

My local Mercedes dealer said the alignment charge would be $159.95, which, if done correctly, is something that I will probably go for. Do both your wheels lean in the direction of the turn? That is what I am trying to determine, so that I can talk to the people who did the work originally.

My outside wheel (outside on the direction of the turn) is literally straight up and down whether I turn left or right. I took it to the largest dealer in Chicago, and they want to put it on the rack, and the service manager did not know the answer to my question. DO THE WHEELS BOTH LEAN IN THE DIRECTION OF THE TURN?

By the way Army, there are two great resources for do it yourselfers. For $12.95 you can get a one year subscription from Mercedes to see the parts diagrams on ALL of their cars called startekinfo. This helps when you want to see how things fit together. The other is alldatadiy which you can subscribe to for 5 years for $46 or so. They show you how to do a lot of this stuff, plus they have torque values, plus they show the hours alloted for the repairs. This way you can judge the value of the deal if you take the car to a shop or dealer. This is money well spent, as there is a lot of information on the internet that is just plain wrong. The subscription price I mentioned is just for one car. You may need to talk to a dealer to be sure you pick the right car from the list (there are hundreds). My vehicle is a CAR, and it is a 123.123 240D Japanese and US market car, NORTH AMERICAN market. SEE LINK CORRECTION UNDER MY POST BELOW: STARTEK INFO

These subscriptions are well worth the money (both are about $21 per year if you do the 5 year on alldata.

I have tried looking at photos, and all sorts of ways to confirm that the wheels should both tilt in the direction of the turn.

Regards,

Last edited by rickmay; 05-11-2011 at 06:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:06 PM
Orv's Avatar
Orv Orv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 698
I would expect the inner wheel to lean more...it has to turn sharper due to Ackermann geometry.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:43 PM
rickmay's Avatar
like music to my ears
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago area, soon to be in lower taxed area
Posts: 117
Hi Orv

I have to look up Ackerman.

All I want to determine is that both wheels perceptably lean toward the inside of the turn.

Do both wheels on your TD lean in?

Regards and appreciate the input,

Rick
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:57 PM
Yak Yak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmay View Post
My question relates to many Mercedes in this age area.

I seem to remember that my 300D 's front wheels leaned into a turn, particularly, when parking, when you have the steering full right or left. Make a right turn and the wheels lean to the right.
Make a left turn and the wheels lean to the left.

Shouldn't both wheels lean INTO THE DIRECTION OF THE TURN? I ask, as I just had a whole new front end put on.

After getting the car back, if I turn the steering to full left, the right wheel is pretty much straight up and down. The left wheel is leaning to the left, and it seems to be too much lean.

Thoughts anyone?

Rick
New front end and new alignment, with warranty? Then get the printout with the specs and compare to info available here. I don't have it handy but there's a few threads on alignment info for the W123s.

But you're also concerned about the geometry in the turn, when alignment is only static measurements straight ahead. You could go full-lock, take some pics, then turn the other way and compare. That'll give some measure of comparison.

I think the inside wheel appears to "lean into" the turn a bit more than the outside wheel, but that may be more perception than reality. "New front end" could cover a lot of ground with a lot of new parts and adjustments. Look it over, take pics, compare left to right, use a tape measure on your brake support rods, tie rods, drag link. With new parts and an undamaged frame you should be a +/- a few millimeters of factory spec - and those numbers are in the manual.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-10-2011, 10:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carson City, NV
Posts: 3,790
While I was out shopping I went to left full lock on my '83 and observed that both front wheels lean to the left in this position. They seem to lean about the same amount, but I just eyeballed it and didn't do any kind of precision measurement.
__________________
Whoever said there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes never had a cheap Jaguar.

83 300D Turbo with manual conversion, early W126 vented front rotors and H4 headlights 367,xxx miles
08 Triumph Street Triple 30,xxx miles, lowered 10mm in front, Pirelli Angel GT tires, EBC HH brake pads, otherwise stock.
88 Jaguar XJS V12 93,xxx miles. I should be in the garage now.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-10-2011, 11:22 PM
Orv's Avatar
Orv Orv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 698
You probably don't want info on what mine does. My front end is utterly worn out.

Does it track straight and corner OK? If you're not having a specific problem, like poor tracking or uneven tire wear, I'd just drive it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-11-2011, 08:07 AM
JHZR2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4,241
Nice 240! I was exploring wheel tilt and suspension diagnosis on my coupe. Lots of discussion, things to check, even dealer alignment specs here:

Suspension diagnosis for w123
__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (162k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (438k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-11-2011, 10:50 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Do the wheels tilt the same way? Yes they should when correctly adjusted, though one wheel will tilt further than the other.

The specifications for your car are probably good in this thread:-

W123 Caster / castor settings for a sedan / saloon?

In case you want to compare computer print outs and specifications.
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-11-2011, 04:02 PM
rickmay's Avatar
like music to my ears
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago area, soon to be in lower taxed area
Posts: 117
UPDATE

7:30 AM tomorrow, my shop is going to check alignment, hopefully, with me watching, and they will also give me a printout. I also read whunters WHEEL ALIGNMENT DIY DATA. Everything on my car is GOOD, except my rear sway bar links. They are quite bad. I am going to check the differential mount tomorrow, along with the trailing arm bushings even though the latter is not on Mr. Hunter's list. I checked the ride height today using the 300D specs, which are 760mm to the bottom of the hood at the headlight and the bottom of the trunk lid. Since all four were spot on my 240D, I for now am assuming that my 240D has the same spec. See the following:

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/legomech/CarBlueprints/MBZ-Blueprints/blueprint-123-1.jpg

Since my ride height looks spot on, I am not sure that the rear sway bar links will make a major difference. When the shop reported back to me, they also relayed the following:
The guide rod is the caster adjustment. Sam said he did mark everything on the front end. Even so the alignment machine will pick up the caster specs and we adjust accordingly. Jay said the caster adjustment is at its full limit (all the way in) and it is still out of spec.
I guess they felt no need to report this if I did not say anything. They therefore, have MAX positive caster, which is hard to believe when the car has never been in an accident.


I am interested in seeing what spec they used on caster because of the following article reports that if the castor is too positive, the steering will be heavy and the steering wheel may kick when you hit a bump. I have thought that many bumps come a little too hard.

http://www.anewtoronto.com/wheel%20alignment.html

One other observation, is that when I looked at the front end, I also noticed that the springs seemed somewhat twisted-looking. I occasionally get a noise up there that sounds like a spring moving a little. I am going to look at that tomorrow, and will take a picture(s). With the ride height correct and most everything new, it would seem my springs should be OK (except that they were perfectly straight before). (Also, one of the drains on the lower spring cup was at a high point.)

Do you think I would be insulting if I asked to put my 340 degree laser level on one of their pads to check their alignment platform?

Skippy, because of your comment, I have to ask if you live near Sea World?

If anyone has any thoughts on the springs, let's wait to see if the shop can answer to everyone's curiosity. Should be tomorrow. Hopefully, enlightenment will happen tomorrow.

Thank you all thus far.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-11-2011, 04:18 PM
Zacharias's Avatar
Not so amused
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Quebec
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmay View Post
For $12.95 you can get a one year subscription from Mercedes to see the parts diagrams on ALL of their cars called startekinfo.
Prices have gone up, apparently.

StarTekInfo is now $18 for 24 hours, $275 per month.

This is per: https://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/subscribe2.jsp
__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-11-2011, 04:32 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
I have three comments that may or may not be helpful...

First measuring the ride height from the lights / body parts etc is kind of OK if you are looking for a rough estimate. If you want to check it "properly" the procedure in the FSM should be adopted.

See this post if you want to know a little bit more. I guess a dealer should / would have the special tools to do this:-

How I adjusted the toe in / out, camber and caster on my W123 300D

The guide rod? Uhmmm I assume they are talking about the brake support <= this is the FSM's description but there are a few others...

Adjusting the brake support will also ever so slightly alter the camber. It predominantly changes the caster - but the camber gets altered too.

When measuring toe in/out they are meant to use a spreader bar. If the toe is not set at zero degrees, then the other measurements / settings are not going to be spot on. The FSM specifies values of caster and camber at zero degree toe...

...I'm sorry to sound pedantic and to quote and quote the FSM but this sort of information may help you decide whether you are getting your money's worth.

Good luck.
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-11-2011, 05:54 PM
rickmay's Avatar
like music to my ears
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago area, soon to be in lower taxed area
Posts: 117
STARTEK INFO

Sir
Zacharias
Diesel grump

I paid $12.

You do not look like a man that I want to upset. You also scared the poop out of me. I checked my discover card, and there has been only one charge to Mercedes Benz on this for $12.00 for one year. I also went back to Startekinfo, and saw what you saw. More poop got scared. Got a towel?

EVERYTHING OK, HOWEVER

I trying to figure out what happened at the time I subscribed and can't. Maybe, the page I see is different because of my subscription. I did go to where I log in to see my car, and I saw what I have attached below. Try this address: https://epc.startekinfo.com/epc/home.jsp

Click: SUBSCRIBE
Click: I AGREE (don't worry big fella, they won't charge you for doing this)

You should be taken to a page that looks like my attachment. If you don't get this call the 8004mercedes, and talk to tech support. You can get the number from your local MB parts department.

Everytime you go to log in, you have to put in your user name and password, then CLICK on the Click here link, right-click on the warning that pops up and click on DOWNLOAD FILE. Then CLICK on the Click here link again. In the top left corner, leave it in the MD MODE, under ASSORTMENT CLASS, click on CAR, then choose the model. I suggest visiting your MB parts department and give them your model and VIN to be sure you make the correct selection.

Follow my instructions above the first time you log on; it will save you time.

Zacharias, you need not smile for the camera, but maybe you can find it in your big heart to forgive.

Rick
Attached Thumbnails
1983 240D WHEEL  ALIGNMENT (new purchase)-startek-info.jpg  

Last edited by rickmay; 05-11-2011 at 06:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-11-2011, 06:39 PM
rickmay's Avatar
like music to my ears
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago area, soon to be in lower taxed area
Posts: 117
Smile Guide Rod and Zacharias

Army, attached is photo of the guide rod (see red). 26 is the guide rod mount, and coming forward from the mount is the guide rod, which is adjusted forward and backward on the mount. Parts 38-47 anchor the two together. All the parts places refer to this rod as the Guide Rod. Mercedes calls it a lateral something or another.

Zacharias
Diesel grump

Zacharias, it takes a while to get familiar with where to find the drawings, and I sometimes forget where I got it in the first place, but they are very helpful for the thankfully, meager cost.
Attached Thumbnails
1983 240D WHEEL  ALIGNMENT (new purchase)-guide-rod.jpg  

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page