Kit to allow use of 5 speed W124 manual gearboxes in a W123 - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

75Sv1 · #76 09-02-2011, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

$10K ? Having never made one of these, this may seem out of line, but one can get an aluminum head for way under that, under $1,000 and that is for a production run under 10 where the universal supply and demand is incredibly limited. My guess is that a head is much more complicated than a bell housing. Assuming the costs are much lower, is there anyone out there able to advise if the bell housing is the major factor / major part?

Many factors. Yes a head is more complicated. Time is also a factor. I think one bellhousing I did some design work cast $35K to cast prototypes. Due to time constrianst, it was needed in two weeks. Usual time is about a month. Also, were the part is cast. China is much cheaper, at least at the moment. So, we are comparing a price for a prototype to a limited production. Cost should be simular, but I'd think somewhat less for a production part.
Still, I was pointing out that the main cost would be the initial casting cope and drag or forms.
Tom

t walgamuth · #77 09-02-2011, 09:13 AM

[QUOTE=greazzer;2782822]My .02 worth

1. Many folks say the Getrag 717.400 is common enough to just go out and buy one. However, looking at the threads over the years, folks are actively searching for one for extended periods of time. Thus, what is a rough guess as to the universal supply & demand?
/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly. FI was spouting about "just find a 123 five speed" a couple of days ago but I was thinking "where?" I have one which you can have when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

I was trying to think of how many 123 five speeds there are in this country and I guess I am thinking there must be between five and one hundred.

There are maybe a half dozen known here. If I had to put money down and bet I would say 36 in this country max...?

winmutt · #78 09-02-2011, 09:16 AM

Just from my experience I have seen half a dozen or so 240D 5speed from the factory on CL etc.

JB3 · #79 09-02-2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1

Many factors. Yes a head is more complicated. Time is also a factor. I think one bellhousing I did some design work cast $35K to cast prototypes. Due to time constrianst, it was needed in two weeks. Usual time is about a month. Also, were the part is cast. China is much cheaper, at least at the moment. So, we are comparing a price for a prototype to a limited production. Cost should be simular, but I'd think somewhat less for a production part.
Still, I was pointing out that the main cost would be the initial casting cope and drag or forms.
Tom

I 2nd this. I have some experience with plastic roto-mold construction, and even though its a totally different medium, the construction of a precision mold is not cheap. 10 to 20K minimum, and that would be a much simpler mold than something for cast aluminum.

Also, question on the custom head. For a custom head, would it not be completely machined out of a block of aluminum? I figure for something like that you would start with a blank of raw material, and machine it to specs, you wouldn't be casting something new first I don't think.

To cast a complete bell housing, you need to create a complex mold, followed by lengthy machining process. By the time you are done, it would be 20-30 times the price than just adapting something else, or another chassis transmission to the application.

Im not sure its a totally realistic idea for this, you would need a very large group of people to pony up a very large collection of cash for an extremely complex, completely untested product that requires many many steps in construction.

winmutt · #80 09-02-2011, 09:25 AM

Has anyone simply thought about asking ZF?

JB3 · #81 09-02-2011, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winmutt

Has anyone simply thought about asking ZF?

thats a good idea, but how big is the market for this really?

1-You have a car and engine last produced in the mid 80s, getting on 25-30 years ago.

2-You have a percentage of owners of those cars with that engine who drive stick and prefer it.

3-You have an even smaller percentage of those stick drivers who are willing to do a lot of work and labor to add a 5th gear

So basically, if I were ZF, I would see my maximum target market as a small part of a shrinking demand, which is a small part of a shrinking variant of transmission options and people who use them, which is part of a group of car enthusiasts driving around a shrinking collection of antique cars. A small part of a small piece of a small group that keeps getting smaller in short.

The market for them making something would only be able to grow in a very limited space for a very specific group that is constantly contracting as the years go by, not saying it wouldn't be worth it, just that it would be difficult to demonstrate that it would be very profitable.

75Sv1 · #82 09-02-2011, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

I 2nd this. I have some experience with plastic roto-mold construction, and even though its a totally different medium, the construction of a precision mold is not cheap. 10 to 20K minimum, and that would be a much simpler mold than something for cast aluminum.

Also, question on the custom head. For a custom head, would it not be completely machined out of a block of aluminum? I figure for something like that you would start with a blank of raw material, and machine it to specs, you wouldn't be casting something new first I don't think.

To cast a complete bell housing, you need to create a complex mold, followed by lengthy machining process. By the time you are done, it would be 20-30 times the price than just adapting something else, or another chassis transmission to the application.

Im not sure its a totally realistic idea for this, you would need a very large group of people to pony up a very large collection of cash for an extremely complex, completely untested product that requires many many steps in construction.

It really depends on the market. Many prototype heads are cast. Some of that is to check out how it would hold up for production. Also, at a certain point it is more cost effective to cast, than machine even in low volumes. Depends on size and complexity of the part. My overall point is that there is an itnital cost with casting, ie the molds. That cost has to be amortized over the lot or number of produced units. The cost of machine a flywheel housing as I remeber wasn't very cost prohibative. Still the $600 offer on the table has scared many away. It is probably fairly reasonable, given low volume etc. There was talk about importing trans from India. I don't know if any figures ever came of that.
Tom

winmutt · #83 09-02-2011, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

thats a good idea, but how big is the market for this really?

1-You have a car and engine last produced in the mid 80s, getting on 25-30 years ago.

2-You have a percentage of owners of those cars with that engine who drive stick and prefer it.

3-You have an even smaller percentage of those stick drivers who are willing to do a lot of work and labor to add a 5th gear

So basically, if I were ZF, I would see my maximum target market as a small part of a shrinking demand, which is a small part of a shrinking variant of transmission options and people who use them, which is part of a group of car enthusiasts driving around a shrinking collection of antique cars. A small part of a small piece of a small group that keeps getting smaller in short.

The market for them making something would only be able to grow in a very limited space for a very specific group that is constantly contracting as the years go by, not saying it wouldn't be worth it, just that it would be difficult to demonstrate that it would be very profitable.

Gotta think of europe and the rest of the world, engines from 200,240,280,300. Across a variety of chassis including galendewagens, pontons, SL's etc etc etc. I would pay 2k maybe 3k shipped for a brand new in box with warranty trans. G wagen owners world wide would not hesitate at the opportunity regardless of the price.

Globally I can easily see a batch of a 1000 of these at a reasonable price being sold with in one year, hell within a few months.

winmutt · #84 09-02-2011, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1

Still the $600 offer on the table has scared many away.

For an adapter, sure. I wouldnt hesitate to pay 2 times that for a rebuilt 5 speed. Brand new with warranty from ZF? I'd waste some loot on that.

JB3 · #85 09-02-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winmutt

Gotta think of europe and the rest of the world, engines from 200,240,280,300. Across a variety of chassis including galendewagens, pontons, SL's etc etc etc. I would pay 2k maybe 3k shipped for a brand new in box with warranty trans. G wagen owners world wide would not hesitate at the opportunity regardless of the price.

Globally I can easily see a batch of a 1000 of these at a reasonable price being sold with in one year, hell within a few months.

true, if they also managed to completely update the shifting away from the clunky side levers too, and you had a configurable new trans that would work in a dozen applications perhaps. Would be a completely awesome solution

Im still kind of interested in the toyota trans though, its just so close as far as starter position and bell size. Wasn't there a thread on a guy who put a 617 in a 4 runner or something, and he had some great pics of how perfectly the bell matched up? Im trying to find that thread

EDIT- here it is, look at some of these pics where he comes up with the adapter- (I also stole some of his pics) I mean, look at that, look at how close that trans in to a stock MB configuration

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?8362-89-Toyota-4runner-OM617.952-Benz-Swap

75Sv1 · #86 09-02-2011, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winmutt

Gotta think of europe and the rest of the world, engines from 200,240,280,300. Across a variety of chassis including galendewagens, pontons, SL's etc etc etc. I would pay 2k maybe 3k shipped for a brand new in box with warranty trans. G wagen owners world wide would not hesitate at the opportunity regardless of the price.

Globally I can easily see a batch of a 1000 of these at a reasonable price being sold with in one year, hell within a few months.

I seriously doubt that 1000 trannies a year would interest ZF or any other manufacture. I think that if this was to be 'comercially' avialable, it would be from a small enterprise that specializes in MBs. THey would have to find a source of a manual 5 spd trans that are rebuilt and make an adapter or bellhousings. There are firms that do this for Jeeps and other vehicles. The Toyota trans looks to have some prospects. I would also think water jet over plasma cut. Someone on this board took that direction I think with the ZF trans. I think it came down to slave cylinder.
Tom

greazzer · #87 09-02-2011, 11:36 AM

Tom, et al,

I think you took my post the wrong way. If it was perceived as a jab, my apologies. It was never meant to be a jab.

When I was young and dumb, I had a 1954 Packard Caribbean Conv't. The senior model Packards had a 359 cu.in, straight 8. The head was aluminum which was most likely toast if original. They only made 400 of these cars in 1954. The senior models were more numerous, but Packard went out of business in 1956-7 -- they merged with Studabaker in 1954. What I was getting at is that the head is cast aluminum, has all kinds of stuff going on inside even though it is about 3-4" (from memory). Back in the day, you could buy one new for under $500. Taking into consideration inflation, et cet., the costs should not be horrible for a newly casted one. But as others correctly pointed out, finding a "donor" whatever make transmission and making a bell housing is easier said than done. And the others who correctly pointed out that finding one of these bad boys is not so simple as just buying one, thanks because I was ready to get a scolding for wondering where I could buy one.

I think step one may be: Can one of the transmission guru's ID which transmission would be the BEST candidate for a 5 speed with a modified bell housing or newly casted bell housing ?

Universal Supply & Demand question and answer - done, great job knowing that it is pure luck and not just "buying one"

SirNik84 · #88 09-02-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

true, if they also managed to completely update the shifting away from the clunky side levers too, and you had a configurable new trans that would work in a dozen applications perhaps. Would be a completely awesome solution

Im still kind of interested in the toyota trans though, its just so close as far as starter position and bell size. Wasn't there a thread on a guy who put a 617 in a 4 runner or something, and he had some great pics of how perfectly the bell matched up? Im trying to find that thread

EDIT- here it is, look at some of these pics where he comes up with the adapter- (I also stole some of his pics) I mean, look at that, look at how close that trans in to a stock MB configuration

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?8362-89-Toyota-4runner-OM617.952-Benz-Swap

Check It out!
http://www.4x4labs.com/products/diesel-conversions/om617w56/

OK, say I want to spend the $625 on this kit...... will the Toyota transmission fit in the car? I gotta get my friend with her Toyota 2wd truck over to the house so I can make some measurements and model this thing.

lutzTD · #89 09-02-2011, 11:59 AM

in the performance section of diesel discussion there was a thread about this. I had a partner and pricing and offered a bell to fit the getrag 265 to the OM60X. The 3D design was done by me and it was going to be sand cast similar to the above pictured part so it would only need a master to be made. pricing was around 500-600 each if I could sell 25 and ammortize the tool and make it worth my while, engineering was provided by me. I had maybe 2-3 guys actually say they wanted one.

heres a link talking about the pricing of a cast bell

240dt

greazzer · #90 09-02-2011, 12:24 PM

Hey,

Couple of questions

1. I know nada, zip about Toyota transmissions. How are they? plentiful ? robust? issues, problems, ? No vacuum I assume needed like the auto MB's ?

2. Cost for one at the junkyards ? An easy find, or just replacing one almost impossible to find part for one that is getting there ?

3. Overly complicated solution or does this make life simpler ?

Just some questions that come to mind since I think most folks -- or at least me -- like it simple and things that can be built like a kit.

Thanks for the info !!!