What is the optimum level for water in battery cells? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

shertex · #1 10-06-2011, 10:01 PM

I try to stay on top of the water level in my battery to prolong its life. However, I feel I may keep it too high. What I've been doing is keeping it at the level of the bottom of the caps....but I've had some acid spillover.
What's the correct level?

barry123400 · #2 10-07-2011, 12:01 AM

Usually at the bottom of the caps is ok. Or about an inxh down on the average battery.Make sure the battery is pretty well charged up prior to adding distilled water. Also since you have had overfow issues check the voltage output of the alternator by reading the voltage across the battery at half revolutions.

It should go no higher than 14 volts in my opinion with a normal voltage regulator. Over fourteen and one half volts the regulator is probably defective.

Keeping the car in regular use to me is the most effective way to get good maximum battery life. Thats just my opinion of course.

If the car is stored all winter the only way in my opinion to keep the battery unharmed in any way is to drain the acid with the battery upside down. Put the acid in a glass bottle. In the spring add the acid again and the battery should be in the same exact condition as when you took it out of service.

Wear appropiate clothing and a full face shield when doing this of course just in case. I have lost too many batteries one way or another in storage over the years to really trust any lesser method. Trickle charging, sitting off concrete in the basement for the winter etc have just not worked.

Todays batteries seem to be somehow less durable when out of service than the car batteries of another era. Although the chemistry has not changed probably the actual plates design has,

Codifex Maximus · #3 10-07-2011, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shertex

I try to stay on top of the water level in my battery to prolong its life. However, I feel I may keep it too high. What I've been doing is keeping it at the level of the bottom of the caps....but I've had some acid spillover.
What's the correct level?

I was always told to fill to pucker with distilled water.

layback40 · #4 10-07-2011, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

Usually at the bottom of the caps is ok. Or about an inxh down on the average battery.Make sure the battery is pretty well charged up prior to adding distilled water. Also since you have had overfow issues check the voltage output of the alternator by reading the voltage across the battery at half revolutions.

It should go no higher than 14 volts in my opinion with a normal voltage regulator. Over fourteen and one half volts the regulator is probably defective.

Keeping the car in regular use to me is the most effective way to get good maximum battery life. Thats just my opinion of course.

If the car is stored all winter the only way in my opinion to keep the battery unharmed in any way is to drain the acid with the battery upside down. Put the acid in a glass bottle. In the spring add the acid again and the battery should be in the same exact condition as when you took it out of service.

Wear appropiate clothing and a full face shield when doing this of course just in case. I have lost too many batteries one way or another in storage over the years to really trust any lesser method. Trickle charging, sitting off concrete in the basement for the winter etc have just not worked.

Todays batteries seem to be somehow less durable when out of service than the car batteries of another era. Although the chemistry has not changed probably the actual plates design has,

Where did you get this from?
The plates are porous & if you drain the acid they will be damaged. Also when you invert the battery the sludge in the bottom will end up contaminating the bottom of the plates.
I believe the best way to store a battery is to keep it fully charged out of the car.

barry123400 · #5 10-07-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

Where did you get this from?
The plates are porous & if you drain the acid they will be damaged. Also when you invert the battery the sludge in the bottom will end up contaminating the bottom of the plates.
I believe the best way to store a battery is to keep it fully charged out of the car.

The united states navy gets up to 15 years service life out of their lead acid batteries. This is how they store their lead acid batteries when temporariy out of service beyond a certain length of time or between commisioning. If they did not do this can you imagine how labour and cost intensive replacement wise it would be to deal with the amount of batteries they own?

You are absolutly right about some risks. Yet todays batteries seem to sulphate all too easily when sitting idle. I know something has changed with them. Of course any battery in your hemisphere is upside down to start with.

From my perspective anyways.

I also agree with the sludge risk. One defining charactaristic of a better battery is the amount of room below the plates to accomadate its buildup. A better battery has more room.

Your thoughs indicate to me it may be better to pump out the electroylite if a small flexiable tube can be slipped by the plate assembly on some batteries. I have never tried this but will. It would tend to get some sludge or prevent it going upward. May not be possible to snake a tube by the plate assembly.

When we used to buy a dry battery and the electrolite was added at the point of sale. The battery was instantly at about 90 percent charge and fit to go into service. You might have wanted to do a top up charge though first.

Yet the battery as is would do the job of starting a car easily without a top up. I did also observe this practice was stopped locally. To me it also indicated the battery had been charged and the electrolite pulled as well at the factory. Now you have me thinking and That can be a dangerous thing.

Certainly the manufacturers thought batteries with electroylite had a shelf life deterioration rate back then as well.

It may have been ultimatly decided that the risk to employees at retail outlets handeling the electrolytic was too great a liability. Today when purchasing a battery I always try to fish out one at the back of the rack as it will have the most recent build date. Todays batteries have a build date sticker or notation on them usually so this is not difficult.

The retailers are instructed to follow this policy of prior stock at the front of the line if they are a volume seller. Or stock in depth. I will go onto a lead acid battery forum if such exists or try to contact a lead acid battery expert somewhere and get back.

I may have just been lucky so far. What I am thinking is maybe the sludge dries out and falls back down or is washed off when the acid is reintroduced. The sludge has to form a sustainable conductor between each plate to create a short.

One other concern of mine initially was lead oxide forming in storage as well. Due to the lack of stimulation and leads reluctance to oxidize easily perhaps it is not much of a factor. We will see what the battery gurus have to say and I will force this thread back up with transcripts of their comments.

Marvelicious · #6 10-07-2011, 01:59 PM

Hmmmm, juggle battery acid, OR invest fifty bucks in a battery minder with a desulfator...

vstech · #7 10-07-2011, 02:04 PM

methinks if I was planning to drain batteries, I'd invest in a topsider...

strelnik · #8 10-07-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjh

x2

I was surprised by the original suggestion.

Charge the battery & don't let it freeze, which should be about - 65 F.

I strongly discourage the original procedure.

I accept his comments on the military & yet I still would not advise the typical, at home user to do such.

Just my perspective.

this is an interesting debate which has some safety aspects so next week, I'll ask some navy guys who work with sub batteries and find out what they have been told to do.

LandYaghtLover · #9 10-07-2011, 04:24 PM

I would fill it to the full line. Such as the one on my battery now. Just a thought.

shertex · #10 10-07-2011, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LandYaghtLover

I would fill it to the full line. Such as the one on my battery now. Just a thought.

Yeah, just noticed I had one. Kinda faint, but it's there.

LandYaghtLover · #11 10-07-2011, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shertex

Yeah, just noticed I had one. Kinda faint, but it's there.

Well there ya go then!

I had some battery issues. Ended up being the alt. Which then took out the battery. Ended up replacing both and now its been perfect.

Orv · #12 10-07-2011, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

Also since you have had overfow issues check the voltage output of the alternator by reading the voltage across the battery at half revolutions.

Here's an odd one I saw, once: Overflow issues can also indicate a shorted cell. The remaining cells end up overcharged and tend to vent acid.

Orv · #13 10-07-2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

this is an interesting debate which has some safety aspects so next week, I'll ask some navy guys who work with sub batteries and find out what they have been told to do.

That would be interesting, but there's a slight difference in scale and replacement cost for sub batteries compared to automotive starting batteries. That may affect the risk/benefit calculation just a tad.

layback40 · #14 10-07-2011, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

The united states navy gets up to 15 years service life out of their lead acid batteries. This is how they store their lead acid batteries when temporariy out of service beyond a certain length of time or between commisioning. If they did not do this can you imagine how labour and cost intensive replacement wise it would be to deal with the amount of batteries they own?

The batteries they use are designed to be drained, they have very different plate design. In Europe there were batteries at the time of WW2 that had been in service for nearly 40 years. The electrolyte out of them became part of Hitlers atomic bomb development, lucky you guys got there first!!!

They were working on a H bomb !!

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

You are absolutly right about some risks. Yet todays batteries seem to sulphate all too easily when sitting idle. I know something has changed with them. Of course any battery in your hemisphere is upside down to start with.

From my perspective anyways.

I thought the world was flat !!

My guys here spend all summer lasering ground to make it flat with just a little slope !!

Fair to say that battery development has been to make them smaller & lighter. This results in less plate material. They have also minimized the amount of electrolyte. So level becomes more important. The OP has started a very good topic of discussion!

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

I also agree with the sludge risk. One defining charactaristic of a better battery is the amount of room below the plates to accomadate its buildup. A better battery has more room.

Newer batteries have little or no room. 40 years ago we did not need deep cycle batteries, the regular ones had thick enough plates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

Your thoughs indicate to me it may be better to pump out the electroylite if a small flexiable tube can be slipped by the plate assembly on some batteries. I have never tried this but will. It would tend to get some sludge or prevent it going upward. May not be possible to snake a tube by the plate assembly.

Good luck with this, There is little or no room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

When we used to buy a dry battery and the electrolite was added at the point of sale. The battery was instantly at about 90 percent charge and fit to go into service. You might have wanted to do a top up charge though first.

Yet the battery as is would do the job of starting a car easily without a top up. I did also observe this practice was stopped locally. To me it also indicated the battery had been charged and the electrolite pulled as well at the factory. Now you have me thinking and That can be a dangerous thing.

Certainly the manufacturers thought batteries with electroylite had a shelf life deterioration rate back then as well.

You are talking dry charge batteries. The plates are designed to be ok stored dry until the battery is filled. Once that is done we have a completely different situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

It may have been ultimatly decided that the risk to employees at retail outlets handeling the electrolytic was too great a liability. Today when purchasing a battery I always try to fish out one at the back of the rack as it will have the most recent build date. Todays batteries have a build date sticker or notation on them usually so this is not difficult.

You ever wonder why they have sales on batteries late summer? Clear out all the old stock before the cold when batteries fail. Best to buy new batteries at the end of the cold so that the latter part of the guarantee is over winter. Thats when they tend to fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

The retailers are instructed to follow this policy of prior stock at the front of the line if they are a volume seller. Or stock in depth. I will go onto a lead acid battery forum if such exists or try to contact a lead acid battery expert somewhere and get back.

I may have just been lucky so far. What I am thinking is maybe the sludge dries out and falls back down or is washed off when the acid is reintroduced. The sludge has to form a sustainable conductor between each plate to create a short.

One other concern of mine initially was lead oxide forming in storage as well. Due to the lack of stimulation and leads reluctance to oxidize easily perhaps it is not much of a factor. We will see what the battery gurus have to say and I will force this thread back up with transcripts of their comments.

These batteries have lead oxide plates as well as lead ones. Lead sulphate forms as part of the discharge reaction, & is converted back during recharge.

The things that normally kill a battery are;

1/ acid eating its way into the support frame that the plate material is formed to. Can be caused by over discharge.
2/ Sludge build up shorting the plates.
3/ Mechanical damage to the plates from vibration.

We always go for the heaviest battery with the same electrical spec. ~ thicker plates.

buffa98 · #15 10-08-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

this is an interesting debate which has some safety aspects so next week, I'll ask some navy guys who work with sub batteries and find out what they have been told to do.

Answer: It is normally about 15 years from commissiioning to overhaul on a 688 Class boat. The battery has a agitator air (think fish tank bubbler) to keep the sediment free floating instead of collecting.

Disclaimer: I went through sub school and electrian mate "A" school during the Reagan era so thing might have changed!