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  #16  
Old 11-24-2011, 09:21 AM
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adamkat22
So far you've done a bunch of right things:
First you found this forum---no better exists
Second you've posted a question, and
third you are listening to the advice.
So far, so good. ( You might be surprised at the number of people who argue instead of listen)
Don't worry about what you don't know. There is enough knowledge here to help you, just keep providing good information.
Take care of the basics first. Battery and wiring.
Trouble-shooting a diesel is easy because ( assuming everything is in good mechanical order) a no-start must be either in the starting/starting aids, or the fuel systems. Get the starting and and starting aids correct before moving to the fuel system. Eliminate each thing in order, then move on.
Get the battery fully charged, make sure all the electrical connections are tight, and get the glow plugs sorted out. I am not familiar with the loop style plugs and their wiring--someone here will direct you as to whether you can still use the squiggly large wires with the pencil style plugs.
Oh, and welcome to the forum!

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  #17  
Old 11-24-2011, 10:38 AM
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pencil plugs just need 12 volts. Any way they get the voltage is ok. The loop plug heavy wires will deliver the voltage. No insulators are necessary on the pencil plugs. Just make sure the ground wire is NOT used with the pencil plugs. If it is, that might account for the failed fuse.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #18  
Old 11-24-2011, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry View Post
pencil plugs just need 12 volts. Any way they get the voltage is ok. The loop plug heavy wires will deliver the voltage. No insulators are necessary on the pencil plugs. Just make sure the ground wire is NOT used with the pencil plugs. If it is, that might account for the failed fuse.
... are you saying the squiggly wires are ok to use with the pencil plugs...

I disagree. I'd use no less than #10 stranded copper wire between the pencil plugs.
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  #19  
Old 11-24-2011, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkat22 View Post
ok. wow. thanks for all the info. this is what i know based on what you told me:

i looked at pictures online, and i do indeed have pencil plugs, but they are wired with that squiggly copper (maybe some form of 'making do'). there are only 3 insulators per four glow plugs, so the wires are definately touching each other. that is bad i assume? or only bad if i had loop plugs?

i still need to rule out battery before jumping ahead to other conclusions, but i don't want to mess anything up, so if that is something that is wrong (its very possible there are lots of loose ends like that in this car) then i want to fix it before getting the car running and driving around.

thanks yall!
OK.
we are going to need to see a picture of what you have to proceed with recommendations.

there should be no insulators on the pencil plugs, and there should be no ground strap connected to the last (first) plug.

the squiggly wires from loop plugs should be replaced with insulated copper wire. it's absolutely correct for them all to be connected together with bunched up insulated copper wire.

Russel at dieselgiant.com has a good pictorial on the upgrade from loop to pencil, look over the pics on that site, and see if it's what you have.
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
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  #20  
Old 11-24-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
... are you saying the squiggly wires are ok to use with the pencil plugs...

I disagree. I'd use no less than #10 stranded copper wire between the pencil plugs.
It's not ideal but the squiggly wires should work to get it started.
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1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
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  #21  
Old 11-24-2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
wait... you have loop plugs, and you tested them out of the engine on a battery?
you have likely damaged the loops... they are only supposed to see 3 volts.
I'd go pick up a set of pencil plugs and rewire your setup if I were you.
BINGO ! The newer plugs are so much better... a cinch to install for someone who can swap out an engine and drive the car home...
Plan on using the reamer to make sure the old built up carbon is GONE before putting in the newer style plugs..
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  #22  
Old 11-24-2011, 11:29 AM
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Pictures taken at night with no extra lights would be interesting.. in the middle of the glow cycle... use tripod and time exposure...
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  #23  
Old 11-27-2011, 06:59 PM
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ok. so i have checked out all your suggestions and it still wont start. battery is charged. engine ground strap is connected. glow plugs tested (although don't know if it should take pencil plugs a few seconds to turn orange or if it should happen quicker?). i tried a gas soaked rag over the intake while trying to start. still no luck.

it turns over, but it just won't catch. won't even hiccup or cough. there are a lot of 'loose wires' in this car (for instance, i found the alternator wire ran about six inches out the harness before being cut) and this is my first car and i'm learning a lot, so no suggestion is too obvious.

what do i try and troubleshoot next ya think?
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  #24  
Old 11-27-2011, 07:12 PM
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Are you getting fuel at the injectors? Have you primed the system with the primer pump? Have you tried spraying some wd-40 into the intake manifold?
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2011, 09:51 PM
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ok. just tried spraying some wd40 in there while trying to start it. didn't work (i had also tried a gas soaked rag near the intake). i don't have a priming pump (at least i don't see one. its a little manual pump right? is it possible i don't have one? i seem to remember seeing it when we did the engine swap...maybe it didn't make it back?)

any thoughts on what to try next?
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2011, 10:15 PM
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First things first here. Can you post a picture of your glow plug setup? as well as a picture of one of your glowplugs?
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2011, 11:22 PM
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I question whether the squiggley wires will work with the pencil plugs. I think you are wiring them in series instead of parallel so you would be getting 12 divided by the number of plugs instead of twelve volts to each of them.

I don't think you are getting any useful glow operation.

You should be able to start the car with a pull too without any glow plugs.
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2011, 11:37 PM
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If there's no manual primer pump in the system, it's hole would have to be plugged or there would be diesel spurting everywhere. Pictures of your IP and glow plugs would be helpful as would a video of the engine trying to start.
Pencil plugs don't have to be wired in parallel. Jumper wires from plug to plug work just fine. It's how the retrofit kits are designed.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2011, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry View Post
....Pencil plugs don't have to be wired in parallel. Jumper wires from plug to plug work just fine. It's how the retrofit kits are designed.
The running jumper wires from plug to plug (when the plugs are the pencil type) is parallel wiring. Each plug is grounded to the head via the body. The loop style plugs are insulated from the head. The newer style plugs should never be used with the old style connector wires, as those are resistance conductors. That's why they get red hot at the end of a long glow cycle. Even if they are connected in such a way as to allow the current to flow through, the voltage will decrease successively at each plug down the line, and an overcurrent situation is likely to occur because the internal regulators in the plugs will not function correctly. On a 4 cyl setup wired this way, only the #4 plug will be getting adequate voltage. The rest will not get up to full temperature for lack of juice. The only interconnecting wire that should be used between pencil type plugs is insulated #10 or larger stranded copper.

OP should start by getting the wiring straightened out and checking his fuse again to be sure that he hasn't blown it. (Also, the loop plugs and relay use a 50A fuse, which is adequate and safer for the protection of the relay contacts than the 80A fuse used with the later system.) Once that step is completed, if the engine fails to start, then its time to move on to possible fuel problems and educate the OP about the fuel pump.
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Last edited by Left Coast; 11-28-2011 at 01:03 AM.
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2011, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Coast View Post
This is not correct. The running jumper wires from plug to plug (when the plugs are the pencil type) is parallel wiring. Each plug is grounded to the head via the body.
I realize that. I was responding to Tom's post where he stated that he thought the plugs were being wired in series. Pencil plugs can't actually be wired in series so I was talking about them being wired as if they are in series. I thought Tom was implying that each plug had to have it's own 12 volt feed wire independent of the others. I'm not sure about the voltage drop thru the wires. Will it be so much as to not make the plugs functional at all? If the insulators are used to stop the heavy resistance wires from touching the end of the glow plug then they're not going to work at all.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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