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Stuck engine, need help!
I recently purchased a 1979 240d with a non running engine. What I found was that the inside of the vacuum pump was destroyed. ( picture attached) I took off the oil pan and found small metal shaving in there and I suspect that they are pieces from the vacuum pump. Although i do not know how they ended up there. I tried to rotate the engine with a ratchet and it seems stuck. What can I do to figure out what the problem is, first steps to do? Advice would be helpful.
Last edited by nikkondy; 12-12-2011 at 12:06 AM. |
#2
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Pump debris hung up in the timing chain?
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08 1985 300TD 185k+ 1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03 1985 409d 65k--sold 06 1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car 1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11 1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper 1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4 1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13 |
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Im not sure, how can i check. I have an inspection camera, is there any way to look at the chain?
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#4
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Stuck engine, need help!
I recently purchased a 1979 240d with a non running engine. What I found was that the inside of the vacuum pump was destroyed. I took off the oil pan and found small metal shaving in there and I suspect that they are pieces from the vacuum pump. Although i do not know how they ended up there. I tried to rotate the engine with a ratchet and it seems stuck. What can I do to figure out what the problem is, first steps to do? Advice would be helpful.
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#5
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Take a magnet and see if the shavings are attracted. Colour of shavings if noticeable? and perhaps a description of their size.
Broken parts may be jamming up the timing chain. |
#6
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Quote:
Pray that the bits of metal have not got into other places a part from the sump & that the timing chain has not jumped a tooth. You may need to rotate backward to see if you can dislodge the broken bits.
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Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort.... 1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket. 1980 300D now parts car 800k miles 1984 300D 500k miles 1987 250td 160k miles English import 2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles 1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo. 1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion. Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving |
#7
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Color of shavings is gray, they are about half a centimeter, not sure if magnetic.
Is there any way to check? |
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I read that you should never turn backwards only clockwise. Is there any way the bits could have made it into the cylinder. Also, I wonder how they got into the oils pan?
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#9
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Answer
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(wrecked) OM617 piston and rod My best advice is to remove the lower oil pan, it MUST come off for diagnosis and/or cleaning. .
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ASE Master Mechanic asemastermechanic@juno.com Prototype R&D/testing: Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician. Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). Dynamometer. Heat exchanger durability. HV-A/C Climate Control. Vehicle build. Fleet Durability Technical Quality Auditor. Automotive Technical Writer 1985 300SD 1983 300D 1984 190D 2003 Volvo V70 2002 Honda Civic https://www.boldegoist.com/ |
#10
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Not sure what's visible if you drop the lower pan? Anyone else know? Have you pulled the valve cover? Can you see the chain directly behind the pump at the timing device? Is there anything jammed right there? That's a diaphragm pump isn't it? I don't think those pumps are known for disintegrating. It's the piston pump which usually flies apart. Some forensic analysis might be helpful to others. Got any idea as to why it failed?
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08 1985 300TD 185k+ 1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03 1985 409d 65k--sold 06 1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car 1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11 1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper 1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4 1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13 |
#11
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More than a one tooth jump of the timing chain will create valve interference remember. If the parts from the vacuum pump got in the chain and sprocket area and were large enough it might do it.
Since the engine is currently locked up what I might attempt. Your going to love this and hopefully someone else will have a better ideal. At first I thought of using cardboard disks. Then string occured to me. Actually you would have to use a piece of tubing of some sort. Put the tube against the harmonic balancer and using string or a method of your design. Measure the distance from the tdc mark on the balancer to the indicator on the engineblock. Be accurate now. Making an exact device to mount with the cam bolt would move the refference mark positions out to the same tube as used on the balancer very accuratly as well I imagine. Much depends on your skill and confidence when doing things like this. Then take the same tube and centre it properly on the cam gear and do the same. The distance will be exactly half of the lower harmonic balancer measurement if the engine is still in time crankshaft to camshaft wise. Extrapolation of the marks from the cam gear area may require some finess.It may or may not even be somewhat difficult yet still doable. I am thinking a smaller tube and calculating the difference that would make to convert to the larger tubes circumferance measurement ratio. Locate both the cam timing marks and the crank timing mark. How far are they away from their respective reference marks now? You may get lucky and currently have one or the other really close right now but the odds are against this. I might think of or others may have have an easier way as this is spur of the moment thinking. If another way occurs to me later I will post it.It probably will. You do have the valve pan off already to make sure the chain is not already broken? There is also a chance you have things all jammed up with a large enough piece of metal loose in the chain/ sprocket network as well. This is where I would go first. All the above is based on the vacuum pump failure at the time of seizure. Try to identify the metals found in the oil pan as well. Are they magnetic or not? It has the best probability as the cause but not the absolute certainty of it. If the last owner could turn off the engine with the key the last time he used the car before the seizure trip. It would be a good indication it was the breakup of the vacuum pump that caused this. Simpler afterthoughts already. Remove the chain tensioner device. Can you get a small movement at the crankshaft then? Thats if you have absolutly no movement now . This after checking the chains current integrity with the valve pan removed of course. This could indicate where you are jammed up. You have not lucked into the easiest problem area on these cars. Something more normal like no fuel availability would have been prefferable. Last edited by barry123400; 12-12-2011 at 11:54 AM. |
#12
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Quote:
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1983 300D, the "Avocado" 1976 240D, 4-spd the "Pumpkin", SOLD to Pierre 1984 190D, 2.2L, 5-spd, my intro to MBZ diesels, crashed into in 2002 |
#13
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How would he do that? covers?
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K 1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild 1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K 1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor 2014 Kubota L3800 tractor 1964 VW bug "Lifes too short to drive a boring car" |
#14
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The first thing I'd do is remove the rocker arms from the top of the engine - if you do this the camshaft can spin, the pistons can go up and down but the valves won't hit pistons. Let's hope it isn't too late.
Next like Kerry said I'd start looking at the front of the engine => timing chain area. Remove the lower oil pan so that you can look up / shine a light upwards Then remove the camshaft sprocket Then remove the IP timing device I'd remove all of the timing chain guides and tensioners and look for damage...
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver 1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone 1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy! 1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits! |
#15
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I believe the below is realted to the Vacuum Pump Failure and what happes as a result of Vacuum Pump Failure.
Who has or knows someone that has experienced a timing chain breakage/failure? Who has or knows someone that has experienced a timing chain breakage/failure? MY Question on Timing Chain Failure Who has or knows someone that has experienced a timing chain breakage/failure? - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum What in particular causes vacuum pump failure? What in particular causes vacuum pump failure? - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum New Vacuum Pump Ruined due to too much Timer Shaft End Play (the title from my notes). second vacume pump, help! on a trip-Toronto - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum
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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel |
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