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  #1  
Old 12-11-2011, 11:02 PM
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Stuck engine, need help!

I recently purchased a 1979 240d with a non running engine. What I found was that the inside of the vacuum pump was destroyed. ( picture attached) I took off the oil pan and found small metal shaving in there and I suspect that they are pieces from the vacuum pump. Although i do not know how they ended up there. I tried to rotate the engine with a ratchet and it seems stuck. What can I do to figure out what the problem is, first steps to do? Advice would be helpful.

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Stuck engine, need help!-dsc04371.jpg   Stuck engine, need help!-dsc04372.jpg   Stuck engine, need help!-dsc04373.jpg  

Last edited by nikkondy; 12-12-2011 at 12:06 AM.
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  #2  
Old 12-11-2011, 11:13 PM
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Pump debris hung up in the timing chain?
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  #3  
Old 12-12-2011, 12:01 AM
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Im not sure, how can i check. I have an inspection camera, is there any way to look at the chain?
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  #4  
Old 12-12-2011, 12:09 AM
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Stuck engine, need help!

I recently purchased a 1979 240d with a non running engine. What I found was that the inside of the vacuum pump was destroyed. I took off the oil pan and found small metal shaving in there and I suspect that they are pieces from the vacuum pump. Although i do not know how they ended up there. I tried to rotate the engine with a ratchet and it seems stuck. What can I do to figure out what the problem is, first steps to do? Advice would be helpful.
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  #5  
Old 12-12-2011, 12:40 AM
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Take a magnet and see if the shavings are attracted. Colour of shavings if noticeable? and perhaps a description of their size.

Broken parts may be jamming up the timing chain.
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
Take a magnet and see if the shavings are attracted. Colour of shavings if noticeable? and perhaps a description of their size.

Broken parts may be jamming up the timing chain.
X2
Pray that the bits of metal have not got into other places a part from the sump & that the timing chain has not jumped a tooth. You may need to rotate backward to see if you can dislodge the broken bits.
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:49 AM
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Color of shavings is gray, they are about half a centimeter, not sure if magnetic.

Is there any way to check?
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  #8  
Old 12-12-2011, 12:51 AM
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I read that you should never turn backwards only clockwise. Is there any way the bits could have made it into the cylinder. Also, I wonder how they got into the oils pan?
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Old 12-12-2011, 01:24 AM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkondy View Post
I recently purchased a 1979 240d with a non running engine. What I found was that the inside of the vacuum pump was destroyed. I took off the oil pan and found small metal shaving in there and I suspect that they are pieces from the vacuum pump. Although i do not know how they ended up there. I tried to rotate the engine with a ratchet and it seems stuck. What can I do to figure out what the problem is, first steps to do? Advice would be helpful.
I hope it did not throw a rod, as this one did.
(wrecked) OM617 piston and rod

My best advice is to remove the lower oil pan, it MUST come off for diagnosis and/or cleaning.


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  #10  
Old 12-12-2011, 09:34 AM
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Not sure what's visible if you drop the lower pan? Anyone else know? Have you pulled the valve cover? Can you see the chain directly behind the pump at the timing device? Is there anything jammed right there? That's a diaphragm pump isn't it? I don't think those pumps are known for disintegrating. It's the piston pump which usually flies apart. Some forensic analysis might be helpful to others. Got any idea as to why it failed?
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  #11  
Old 12-12-2011, 11:11 AM
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More than a one tooth jump of the timing chain will create valve interference remember. If the parts from the vacuum pump got in the chain and sprocket area and were large enough it might do it.

Since the engine is currently locked up what I might attempt. Your going to love this and hopefully someone else will have a better ideal. At first I thought of using cardboard disks. Then string occured to me.

Actually you would have to use a piece of tubing of some sort. Put the tube against the harmonic balancer and using string or a method of your design. Measure the distance from the tdc mark on the balancer to the indicator on the engineblock. Be accurate now. Making an exact device to mount with the cam bolt would move the refference mark positions out to the same tube as used on the balancer very accuratly as well I imagine. Much depends on your skill and confidence when doing things like this.

Then take the same tube and centre it properly on the cam gear and do the same. The distance will be exactly half of the lower harmonic balancer measurement if the engine is still in time crankshaft to camshaft wise.

Extrapolation of the marks from the cam gear area may require some finess.It may or may not even be somewhat difficult yet still doable. I am thinking a smaller tube and calculating the difference that would make to convert to the larger tubes circumferance measurement ratio.

Locate both the cam timing marks and the crank timing mark. How far are they away from their respective reference marks now? You may get lucky and currently have one or the other really close right now but the odds are against this. I might think of or others may have have an easier way as this is spur of the moment thinking. If another way occurs to me later I will post it.It probably will.

You do have the valve pan off already to make sure the chain is not already broken? There is also a chance you have things all jammed up with a large enough piece of metal loose in the chain/ sprocket network as well. This is where I would go first. All the above is based on the vacuum pump failure at the time of seizure. Try to identify the metals found in the oil pan as well. Are they magnetic or not?

It has the best probability as the cause but not the absolute certainty of it. If the last owner could turn off the engine with the key the last time he used the car before the seizure trip. It would be a good indication it was the breakup of the vacuum pump that caused this.

Simpler afterthoughts already. Remove the chain tensioner device. Can you get a small movement at the crankshaft then? Thats if you have absolutly no movement now . This after checking the chains current integrity with the valve pan removed of course. This could indicate where you are jammed up.

You have not lucked into the easiest problem area on these cars. Something more normal like no fuel availability would have been prefferable.

Last edited by barry123400; 12-12-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-12-2011, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkondy View Post
I recently purchased a 1979 240d with a non running engine. What I found was that the inside of the vacuum pump was destroyed. ( picture attached) I took off the oil pan and found small metal shaving in there and I suspect that they are pieces from the vacuum pump. Although i do not know how they ended up there. I tried to rotate the engine with a ratchet and it seems stuck. What can I do to figure out what the problem is, first steps to do? Advice would be helpful.
Are you absolutely sure the engine is siezed? Did you pull all the injectors and/or the glow plugs before you tried turning the engine? What did the PO/seller tell you about the engine/history of the car? As much information as you have to give, would certainly offer a clearer pic to us. Also, you can access the entire timing chain by removing all the front covers.
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  #13  
Old 12-12-2011, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by piccolovic View Post
Also, you can access the entire timing chain by removing all the front covers.
How would he do that? covers?
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  #14  
Old 12-12-2011, 12:00 PM
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The first thing I'd do is remove the rocker arms from the top of the engine - if you do this the camshaft can spin, the pistons can go up and down but the valves won't hit pistons. Let's hope it isn't too late.

Next like Kerry said I'd start looking at the front of the engine => timing chain area.

Remove the lower oil pan so that you can look up / shine a light upwards

Then remove the camshaft sprocket

Then remove the IP timing device

I'd remove all of the timing chain guides and tensioners and look for damage...
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:07 PM
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I believe the below is realted to the Vacuum Pump Failure and what happes as a result of Vacuum Pump Failure.

Who has or knows someone that has experienced a timing chain breakage/failure?
Who has or knows someone that has experienced a timing chain breakage/failure?

MY Question on Timing Chain Failure
Who has or knows someone that has experienced a timing chain breakage/failure? - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

What in particular causes vacuum pump failure?
What in particular causes vacuum pump failure? - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum


New Vacuum Pump Ruined due to too much Timer Shaft End Play (the title from my notes).
second vacume pump, help! on a trip-Toronto - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

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