Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-30-2011, 08:29 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: RI
Posts: 1,040
Hard Starting OM617

85 300D, 190000 miles.
The car has a hard time starting at anything lower than 25 degrees. Plugged in it is fine. Question, the very rough and slapping noises I hear on start-up in the cold, could it be mostly related to bad GPs? The engine skips and sputters for a couple of mins after I finally get it running. Really noisy engine clatter, more than usual. I know it needs a valve adjustment and I'm just going to replace the 5 GPs on principal. Is heavy clatter when cold anything to worry about? Once it's up and running I have no issues with the 100 mile a day commute at 70 mph and I get a reliable 28 mpg and use the white jug diesel stuff, about a cup with each fill. Cold seems to have zero affect on the tranny, shifts smooth no matter what.
Thanks

__________________
1985 300D 197K - Semi-Daily Driver Diesel
1998 Volvo V70 AWD 226K - Daily Driver 2
1998 Volvo S70 140K - Wife's DD
2003 GMC Sonoma ZR2 Option - Rusty Truck
THE BABY 1958 220S Sedan 66K All original, never restored and never will be.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-30-2011, 08:56 AM
wildest's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Southern Pines NC
Posts: 261
I have the same car with close to the same mileage. I did my glow plugs on principle early last winter and it made a big difference in cold weather starting, but I had to get a new battery and then a glow plug relay in pretty close succession. Mine doesn't rattle till it's been running for 15-20 seconds, then settles out after another minute or so. Our '79 300D rattles hard on below 45 start-ups, but settles out and runs fine after a minute or so. Just for anecdotal comparison, my '94 F350 rattles on cold start-up and settles down, so I'm thinking it's not uncommon for IDI diesels in cold weather. It is a bit alarming to hear though. It always gets my attention.
__________________
1985 300D-189k The 'UD', Ivory and Pinkamino
1979 300D-211k Dark Gray, Parchment
A 1980 Harley-~166k and
A 1994 Ford diesel pickup-349k and
A 1990 gasser Volvo wagon-145k
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-30-2011, 10:14 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: RI
Posts: 1,040
I guess I'll do the GPs now and the valve crap when it warms up a bit. Engine noise is pretty scary but it quiets down once the engine starts firing on all 5.
__________________
1985 300D 197K - Semi-Daily Driver Diesel
1998 Volvo V70 AWD 226K - Daily Driver 2
1998 Volvo S70 140K - Wife's DD
2003 GMC Sonoma ZR2 Option - Rusty Truck
THE BABY 1958 220S Sedan 66K All original, never restored and never will be.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-30-2011, 10:39 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 1,541
properly adjusted valves would be #2 just behind glow plugs if you're having cold starting issues.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-30-2011, 12:25 PM
1985 300D Turbo
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 628
isnt the slapping noise nailing from the injectors?
Hard cold start, deff GP related
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-30-2011, 01:38 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
At risk of turning this into an oil thread - what oil have you got in it? When did you last change it?
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-30-2011, 01:45 PM
Biodiesel300TD's Avatar
|3iodiesel300T|)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Albany, OR
Posts: 4,845
Hard cold starts are usually one or many bad glow plugs. Also check that the GP strip fuse is still in good shape and that each GP is getting 12v.

The noise you're hearing when it first starts up cold is injector nailing. It's from tired injectors popping open to soon which allow fuel to be injected before it's time. This causes pre-detonation of the fuel and gives that nailing sound. I'd say it's time for some injector rebuilding, or new nozzles. Fresh GPs might help a little, but probably not. They also could just need a can or two of Diesel Purge to clean them out. But most likely you'll need to rebuild them.
__________________
Andrew
'04 Jetta TDI Wagon
'82 300TD ~ Winnie ~ Sold
'77 300D ~ Sold

Last edited by Biodiesel300TD; 12-30-2011 at 02:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-30-2011, 04:19 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: RI
Posts: 1,040
I use Shell Rotella 15W40 dino oil in the car. New last week w/filter. My prior to this 83 300D would start with no heater down to 0F or so but I did adjust the valves and install new GPs on that one. This one is in pretty good shape but I've just not had the time to go through it. I'll do GPs, Valves and consult back here for a good rebuilder for the injectors. at 190K it still doesn't need oil added between changes which I do near 5K miles. It spins pretty good trying to start but doesn't want to catch. 25F or up is fine though. I would imagine the cyls with weak GP may nail before the engine can build up enough heat to light off the fuel. Diesel Purge needs to happen too. It ran good today, started up and did its 100 miles with no problem. I'll drive it until the snow starts then it gets rest until the rains wash away the salt.
__________________
1985 300D 197K - Semi-Daily Driver Diesel
1998 Volvo V70 AWD 226K - Daily Driver 2
1998 Volvo S70 140K - Wife's DD
2003 GMC Sonoma ZR2 Option - Rusty Truck
THE BABY 1958 220S Sedan 66K All original, never restored and never will be.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-31-2011, 02:46 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Well the oil seems fine - that's a relief! I'm trying to understand the clatter when the engine starts... if you think it is valve train noise it could be that the non return valve in the oil filter housing is leaking and the oil is falling back into the sump when the engine is stopped. It would take a bit of time for the oil pump to refill the oil filter tower assembly and then supply the top of the engine with oil... which might explain a noisy clatter at start up.
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-31-2011, 10:50 AM
Zacharias's Avatar
Not so amused
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Quebec
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmmagow View Post
I use Shell Rotella 15W40 dino oil in the car.
If the trouble point is around 25 deg F, it suggest valve adjustment.

However, you aren't doing yourself any favours, trying to start at winter temps with dino. The dino is slowing down your cranking speed, less so when it's been plugged in of course.

I realize you just changed it, but if you aren't able to get to the valve adjustment soon, you could do worse than draining the oil and refilling it with Rotella 0w40 synthetic.
__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-31-2011, 11:38 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: RI
Posts: 1,040
I'll see if I can find 0-40. Can't recall seeing it at the farm store where I buy my diesel stuff. This morning it was about 40 degrees and no racket at start-up, little puff of black smoke but it always does that. I might be able to nail a valve adjustment this weekend. I moved the crap out of the garage to make room for the car. Is it ok to adjust valves say at 20 degreees F or lower or should I wait till spring.
__________________
1985 300D 197K - Semi-Daily Driver Diesel
1998 Volvo V70 AWD 226K - Daily Driver 2
1998 Volvo S70 140K - Wife's DD
2003 GMC Sonoma ZR2 Option - Rusty Truck
THE BABY 1958 220S Sedan 66K All original, never restored and never will be.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:56 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Shell Rotella 5w-40 Syn-T in winter and a new set of bosch duraterm premiums first. Don't forget to ream the gp holes. Then see how she starts. I think you'll be fine. <40˚F weather brings out the beast in 'em when it relates to glow plugs and oil. With your fuel mileage, wait til spring on the valves. Also, check to make sure you are 12+v on your battery. Anything less than 12v and they just won't start. They'll turn over for many minutes, but they just won't start below 12v in cold weather. If you get a good start, but she still nails, you'll want to yank the injectors and check the pop pressures. Nailing is due to premature ignition of fuel in the cyl's prior to TDC. If your injectors pop too early, that causes nailing.
__________________
john
***********
'98 E300 TD "Lukas" 156K
'11 C300 "Mia" 10K, Gorgeous!, Wifey's Car
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-31-2011, 02:05 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmmagow View Post
I'll see if I can find 0-40. Can't recall seeing it at the farm store where I buy my diesel stuff. This morning it was about 40 degrees and no racket at start-up, little puff of black smoke but it always does that. I might be able to nail a valve adjustment this weekend. I moved the crap out of the garage to make room for the car. Is it ok to adjust valves say at 20 degreees F or lower or should I wait till spring.
Yes adjust them - FSM says to adjust an extra 0.05mm for steady temperatures below -20 degrees C. (Chap 05-210) So you're good to go!

Adjust them on the larger side as I understand they have a tendency to tighten over time not loosen...
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-31-2011, 02:07 PM
vstech's Avatar
DD MOD, HVAC,MCP,Mac,GMAC
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mount Holly, NC
Posts: 26,832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacharias View Post
If the trouble point is around 25 deg F, it suggest valve adjustment.

However, you aren't doing yourself any favours, trying to start at winter temps with dino. The dino is slowing down your cranking speed, less so when it's been plugged in of course.

I realize you just changed it, but if you aren't able to get to the valve adjustment soon, you could do worse than draining the oil and refilling it with Rotella 0w40 synthetic.
I've never seen Rotella 0w40... only 5w40... I think the old motors need at least the 5W40 in synthetic form... needs the lube on the solid "lifters/followers"
__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-31-2011, 06:33 PM
Zacharias's Avatar
Not so amused
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Quebec
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
I've never seen Rotella 0w40... only 5w40... I think the old motors need at least the 5W40 in synthetic form... needs the lube on the solid "lifters/followers"
Correct on both points. My bad, typing on a single cup o'joe.

I ought to know by now that zero weight oils are a no-no in the older diesels.

__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page