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-   -   troubleshooting resources "********source" content (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/312154-troubleshooting-resources-%2A%2A%2A%2A%2A%2A%2A%2Asource-content.html)

fochs 01-30-2012 07:49 PM

troubleshooting resources "********source" content
 
Prior to purchasing a 240d (1983), I have owned Volkswagens almost exclusively, along with a couple Volvos. For the Volkswagens, there is the Bentley manual. These manuals are superb in terms of troubleshooting and diagnostics. For the 240d, I can find next to nothing on terms of diagnostics and troubleshooting. The Haynes manual is almost laughable and the FSM is well, the FSM.
I value the the various online discussion forums, but would really like to find a clear, concise compendium of troubleshooting regarding these cars
I want to know if anyone has purchased :
Mercedes Diesel Engine Advanced Fault Diagnostic Manual by Kent Bergsma

And if so is it well thought out and well written?
It seems he has several mini-manuals regarding different car systems and this is a collection of those.

engatwork 01-30-2012 08:08 PM

MB gives it to you for free. Click on:

StarTek

click on MB workshop resources and scroll down to you get to the manual for the W123:).

Diesel911 01-30-2012 08:10 PM

This is how other Folks have done stuff:
Repair Links
DIY Links by Parts Category - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

PeachPartsWiki: Do It Yourself Articles - Mercedes Vehicles

sixto 01-30-2012 08:17 PM

Jim, is StarTek any different from the FSM which the OP already has?

Sixto
87 300D

toomany MBZ 01-30-2012 08:27 PM

The epc is an electronic parts catalog, right?

engatwork 01-30-2012 08:33 PM

It must be late. I did not even see where he said FSM until after I read it again.

I think the startek information is the same as the FSM. Personally, I find it pretty useful:).

fochs 01-30-2012 09:42 PM

I find the Mercedes manual useful for completing tasks, with important details sometimes missing. I am looking for a troubleshooting guide which points to which diagnostics or tasks to be performed for a given car system given symptoms exhibited. so about this Bergsma guy...?

vstech 01-30-2012 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fochs (Post 2875134)
Prior to purchasing a 240d (1983), I have owned Volkswagens almost exclusively, along with a couple Volvos. For the Volkswagens, there is the Bentley manual. These manuals are superb in terms of troubleshooting and diagnostics. For the 240d, I can find next to nothing on terms of diagnostics and troubleshooting. The Haynes manual is almost laughable and the FSM is well, the FSM.
I value the the various online discussion forums, but would really like to find a clear, concise compendium of troubleshooting regarding these cars
I want to know if anyone has purchased :
Mercedes Diesel Engine Advanced Fault Diagnostic Manual by Kent Bergsma

And if so is it well thought out and well written?
It seems he has several mini-manuals regarding different car systems and this is a collection of those.

EVERYTHING printed by THAT website, is printed copies from the FSM... really.
I'd like to know what's bad about the fsm in your opinion? aside from the scarcity of the printed copies, and the poor quality of the cd copies' images... they are very very very informative manuals for the repair and maintenance of the mb vehicle.

tangofox007 01-30-2012 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 2875238)
EVERYTHING printed by THAT website, is printed copies from the FSM... really.

Unlike you, I have not personally viewed all of the subject publications. The ones that I have viewed looked nothing like the FSM. Or any other FSM. (Maybe I have not seen the FSM, whatever that means.)


Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 2875238)
I'd like to know what's bad about the fsm in your opinion?

The general lack of troubleshooting information would be at the top of my list.

fochs 01-30-2012 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 2875238)
EVERYTHING printed by THAT website, is printed copies from the FSM... really.
I'd like to know what's bad about the fsm in your opinion? aside from the scarcity of the printed copies, and the poor quality of the cd copies' images... they are very very very informative manuals for the repair and maintenance of the mb vehicle.


I believe that the FSM is a great resource for a person with experience. Without a working knowledge of the car systems that it describes procedures for, it is merely really good instructions. As far as I have seen, there is no troubleshooting format. The Bentley manuals, at least for mk1+mk2 VW's provide excellent troubleshooting and diagnostic steps. Thanks for characterizing Bergsma's writing; I'll keep looking for a manual geared towards the home mechanic.

kerry 01-30-2012 10:36 PM

You'd probably be hard pressed to find anything better than the collective brain available on this forum. Perhaps not as systematic or as well organized as some manuals but all that is outweighed by the fact that this brain is alive and responds to input.

fochs 01-30-2012 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 2875273)
You'd probably be hard pressed to find anything better than the collective brain available on this forum. Perhaps not as systematic or as well organized as some manuals but all that is outweighed by the fact that this brain is alive and responds to input.

I know, of course, but the very idea of dissecting a living brain:eek:

Brian Carlton 01-31-2012 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fochs (Post 2875235)
so about this Bergsma guy...?

He's done a good job in explaining the basics of troubleshooting and repairing in simple language, far better than the FSM. Most of what he publishes are simple maintenance tasks and he doesn't have any specifications or detailed info.

However, for a person who is new to such a vehicle, his manuals, although pricey, can be helpful.

I bought one for use with disassembly and repair of the seats. It was a decent resource.

For those with more experience on the vehicle, the manuals will probably not provide any info that is not already understood.

t walgamuth 01-31-2012 06:10 AM

I don't believe anybody mentioned the Haynes manual. It is pretty good and has diagnostic information. I normally use it and refer to my factory manual if more detail is needed.

Bio300TDTdriver 01-31-2012 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth (Post 2875404)
I don't believe anybody mentioned the Haynes manual. It is pretty good and has diagnostic information. I normally use it and refer to my factory manual if more detail is needed.

"The Haynes manual is almost laughable"

The OP did and apparently is not impressed. I agree with Brian. I own a couple of Kent's manuals and if you are new to these cars he explains stuff pretty well. He even has some free information on his site. It is where I first learned about the faulty wiring to the rear window switches on the 124. His manuals are more detailed than the FSM IMHO.

otto huber 01-31-2012 06:40 PM

Kent Bergsma also has some videos on youtube that are helpful. He won't take you through an entire repair but getting a good visual introduction to a problem is a nice way to approach whatever issue might be having with the car.

dcotejr 01-31-2012 06:44 PM

Agreed...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by otto huber (Post 2875844)
Kent Bergsma also has some videos on youtube that are helpful. He won't take you through an entire repair but getting a good visual introduction to a problem is a nice way to approach whatever issue might be having with the car.

Since I'm far from an expert, some of these have helped me get oriented to what I was supposed to be doing...

300sdToronto 01-31-2012 07:07 PM

use all resources available :)
 
Well, as far as I can see, a Startek subscription in the US costs 2,850 USD per year and 3,600 Canadian up here through MB Canada. I tried to access the content without a user ID and certainly the 107 and 126 manual sets under workshop resources came up with no content :(

I use this site extensively, plus Dieselgiant and Kent B's site for some resources. All have their strengths and weaknesses. I also have the CD versions of the offical MB FSMs from eBay on CD and they are useful, but require a fair degree of knowledge to be useful. If you don't know the difference between a pitman arm and a coil spring to start with, you quickly get lost in the FSM.

Specifically, I have found Kent B's manuals to be of varying quality. Some are good, some are at a very high level and of poor print quality - rather like the useless diagrams in the Haynes manual.

gatorblue92 01-31-2012 08:36 PM

I bought one of his manuals years ago when I first got my 240D and didn't know about this site. It was useful and well written but not something I would need now.

charmalu 02-01-2012 02:54 AM

There is a guy or use to be a guy on E-Bay that sold CD videos of the various parts of the 123/126 cars.

I bought the one on the vacuum system, he starts from the vac pump, to the vac reservor and explains how the door locks function and what each colored vac line goes to. It was so simple after that.

I had been taking the 85 to this indy shop for what seemed to be the same reocuring problems. eng won`t shut off, door locks won`t work, trans shift hard etc... it was getting kind of expensive.

then with my mity vac and new found knowledge, found the R/R door actiator was leaking, fixed it and has been good for years.

the guy used the name Symbolguy, or something like that. think I bought about 10 of his videos.

Later on I bought the complete set of w123 fsm, the manuel on the 617.95 eng, heat/ac climate control for the type I, II & III systems, and a couple others. read through them real good. and also had the Haynes manual which is the first one i bought. It is a guide, but lacking in some areas.

I do have one of Kents manuals, but got it from someone on e-bay that was passing it on.

then discovered the Forum, wish I had found it a long time ago.

I agree that an understanding of how the various systems in a car work together is a big help in understanding the manuals.
there is a ton of knowledge in this forum, from real time help to hold someone`s hand through 5 pages trying to get something through a new owners head of how one of these diesels work. getting the personal help from some very knowledgeable highly qualified people.

then the resources Tab up at the top of the page of DIY link and the DIY pictorials. just have to dig in and do some reading and searching.

Charlie

gsxr 02-01-2012 10:36 AM

Links for your enjoyment:

Mercedes Factory Service Manuals (FSM), online, free:
W123 FSM:
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/12265/?requestedDocId=12265

W124 FSM:
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/12264/?requestedDocId=12264

W126 FSM:
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/12253/?requestedDocId=12253

W201 FSM:
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/11832/?requestedDocId=11832

R107 FSM:
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/11883/?requestedDocId=11883


There are Haynes manuals for most Mercedes chassis including the W124, W123, W201 and others... however you may need to order them online as some are designed for the UK market, not USA; and they may not cover all models (i.e., the Haynes W124 manual does not cover the M119 V8 engines).
Haynes W124 manual:
http://www.amazon.com/Mercedes-Service-Repair-Manual-Manuals/dp/1859602533/

Haynes W123 manual:
http://www.amazon.com/Mercedes-Diesel-Automotive-Repair-Manual/dp/0856966975

Haynes W201 manual:
http://www.amazon.com/Mercedes-Benz-Service-Repair-Haynes-Manual/dp/1859604501/

Mercedes Factory Electronic Parts Catalog (EPC)
This is the same software program the dealership uses to look up part numbers, and it is also available online for free... requires a subscription though, and a USA-based credit card. Worldwide data is available for $12/year and well worth the cost. Details are at this link:
EPC-net Online


The infamous "W124 bible" (note lower-case "b") is more of a general information book that covers some basic maintenance, but it is NOT a service manual, and NOT comprehensive. It also has a number of technical errors. There is some useful information but it's a supplement to the FSM and/or Haynes manual, not a replacement. I am not aware of an equivalent book for any other chassis:
http://www.amazon.com/Mercedes-Benz--Class-Owners-Bible-1986-1995/dp/0837602300/




:zorro:

compu_85 02-02-2012 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr (Post 2876143)
Mercedes Factory Electronic Parts Catalog (EPC)
This is the same software program the dealership uses to look up part numbers, and it is also available online for free... requires a subscription though, and a USA-based credit card. Worldwide data is available for $12/year and well worth the cost.[/url]

I've wondered about the worldwide data aspect of this. I have the free subscription, yet it lets me plug in euro VINs, and I can go into MD mode and browse though all the euro models. :confused:

-J

Diesel911 02-02-2012 04:17 PM

If you are going to get Haynes, Chilton or even a Bently Manual; ;get it used or new on eBay or Amazon for less.

StaggerLee 02-03-2012 11:32 AM

Bergsma's website is not useful unless you have the money for things that are available for free or don't have the time to learn it yourself. Any advice he gives on his forum is half-way and ends with a suggestion to buy one of his products to get the other half of the information. I thought his site was the cat's meow until I found this one.

His vacuum manual is helpful with a step by step to diagnos various problems, but, the same information is available here for free.

I own about 4 of his books and never use them.

Zacharias 02-03-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StaggerLee (Post 2877663)
Any advice he gives on his forum is half-way and ends with a suggestion to buy one of his products to get the other half of the information. I thought his site was the cat's meow until I found this one.

I agree to a point.

There is huge amount of information on this board and I would be lost without it.... A lot of people have put a huge amount of effort into it.

However, a signficant amount of it is shared among people with above-average ''amateur" wrenching skills. As such, some discussions (and even some detailed how-to posts done with the best of intent) start out from level way beyond some people's ground-zero knowledge. And it can be hard for someone with decades of experience, who has got way deep into DIY, to take a deep breath and move ten steps back to remember what is was like when much or all of this stuff was new....

For example, despite the wealth of info on SLS here, I simply could not get my head around the system until I bought the MS book. And I have pages and pages of threads printed off. (I did later find a private website with an excellent writeup, but I don't think it existed when I purchased the book.)

My high school had no shop class, my old man was a master of DIYWBI (do it yourself wrong - break-it), and hands-on tech stuff has always been a steep uphill grade for me (I learn from hands-on doing, so in the absence of someone to show me the first time, I need what some of you would probably see as spoon-feeding).

Many people are reluctant to look stupid in asking a question. It's ok to say "no question is too stupid" and the mods to their best to encourage such an atmosphere, but the mods can't be everywhere at every moment.

So while I do agree that MS has found a wonderful niche selling brass information at gold prices, and all the best to them with that, it's not a niche that's going to be taken over by this list, or any other, unless PelicanParts wants to hire a full-time tech writer/editor to consolidate the information and arrange for graphics or photo content to accompany everything.

I am trying damn hard to tread lightly with these comments as some people get testy at remarks like this.

sixto 02-03-2012 02:35 PM

This is the first book I read from cover-to-cover. It should help folks with interest but no experience and little confidence understand what turning a wrench is about. You don't need a VW to appreciate the book -

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/94/84/86/img20123.jpg

Sixto
87 300D

vstech 02-03-2012 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto (Post 2877825)
This is the first book I read from cover-to-cover. It should help folks with interest but little experience and no experience understand what turning a wrench is about. You don't need a VW to appreciate the book -

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/94/84/86/img20123.jpg

Sixto
87 300D


Huh? I wonder why they included GMC minivans in the book with the VW's???:D

Zacharias 02-03-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto (Post 2877825)
This is the first book I read from cover-to-cover. It should help folks with interest but little experience and no experience understand what turning a wrench is about. You don't need a VW to appreciate the book -

What a classic. The Rabbit edition was the one of the first books I bought when I was learning... along with an old high school auto shop textbook.

That man was a genius when it came to relating technical concepts in plain language, and the illustrations were amazing.

Added: The Squareback, Fastback and Wagonback: where did they all go?

vstech 02-03-2012 02:42 PM

looks like a cool book to be sure, does the back cover say back? or rear?

sixto 02-03-2012 02:48 PM

This gets OT but there's some great art in the book -

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5057/5...777e7438_z.jpg

http://www.peteraschwanden.com/images/F3ExplodedVW.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SFdcPmRDOL...22892_f520.jpg

http://www.cartoonthunder.net/wp-con...gine_big_o.jpg

The nice thing about a rear mounted longitudinal engine is that the right side of the engine is on the right side of the car :) The not so nice thing is that the front of the engine is at the back of the car :P

Sixto
87 300D

fochs 02-03-2012 08:40 PM

I
Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto (Post 2877825)
This is the first book I read from cover-to-cover. It should help folks with interest but no experience and little confidence understand what turning a wrench is about. You don't need a VW to appreciate the book -

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/94/84/86/img20123.jpg

Sixto
87 300D

I have the next book in that series, POOR RICHARDS RABBIT BOOK; It would be awesome if someone wrote something comparable for these old diesels. I would buy it. Anyone?

whunter 02-03-2012 09:36 PM

FYI
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fochs (Post 2875134)
Prior to purchasing a 240d (1983), I have owned Volkswagens almost exclusively, along with a couple Volvos. For the Volkswagens, there is the Bentley manual. These manuals are superb in terms of troubleshooting and diagnostics. For the 240d, I can find next to nothing on terms of diagnostics and troubleshooting. The Haynes manual is almost laughable and the FSM is well, the FSM.
I value the the various online discussion forums, but would really like to find a clear, concise compendium of troubleshooting regarding these cars
I want to know if anyone has purchased :
Mercedes Diesel Engine Advanced Fault Diagnostic Manual by Kent Bergsma

And if so is it well thought out and well written?
It seems he has several mini-manuals regarding different car systems and this is a collection of those.

Have you looked at this?
Mercedes-Benz Repair Manual - Mercedes Owner's Workshop Manual: W123: 1976-1986 *-* Bentley Publishers - Repair Manuals and Automotive Books

sixto 02-03-2012 10:25 PM

Why in the world would Bentley leave out coupes, wagons and Diesels?

Sixto
87 300D

95m3ltw 02-03-2012 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engatwork (Post 2875154)
MB gives it to you for free. Click on:

StarTek

click on MB workshop resources and scroll down to you get to the manual for the W123:).


Does that work for anyone? I've tried it on several different computers and different days. Menu system seems to work for both the W123 and 124 but says document not found when trying to view the actual data. I can see the PDF choices just fine but not the manuals for either 300D's

benzwagon440 02-04-2012 02:28 PM

I agree with a previous poster that this site does sometimes take more work - it seems tempting to find the manual on MS rather than take the time to refine forum searches until you get exactly what you need. I have found the way MS packages kits to very useful. He has lots of deals including all the seals/hoses/gaskets/o-rings etc for a particular job. I'm about to tackle flex disks and center support for my '85 300td, and being able to follow links to his various kits told me in minutes what would have taken 20 to parse out of this forum.

Then I just ordered from Peach Parts. Phil is great - so helpful.

I love this site! I really feel that VW picture, lying awake at night while bolts and gears and belts and bearings spin through my mind.

Zacharias 02-04-2012 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benzwagon440 (Post 2878377)
I agree with a previous poster that this site does sometimes take more work - it seems tempting to find the manual on MS rather than take the time to refine forum searches until you get exactly what you need.

Actually it gets quite a bit easier once you know the secret to using Google instead of the forum's limited search engine. I only learned that trick (thanks, Army) a few months ago.

Not only does it find stuff the forum engine seems to miss, but it also doesn't return a string of long threads where your keywords appear once in some off-topic comment in post 45... :D

AUDIBLE 02-13-2012 09:50 PM

Climate Control Manual
 
I've been tearing my hair out with the two different CD's from the web, blurry, not text searchable, and missing info about the '87 SDL climate control. So I was delighted to see the StarTek info link. When I got there, I found an online version of one of the DVD's I bought. When I navigated to the 300SDL climate control section, the climate control and the electrical sections were missing, and a screen came up asking me to contact them and let them know. (They were missing from one of the CD's as well.) To this day, I've never seen any documentation of the later-generation 126 AC control unit, or of the revised electrical diagrams for it. All the manuals show the earlier generation ACC unit, which is a completely different analog version with relays. But I'd love to find it. Any ideas?

w123love 02-14-2012 12:20 AM

People learn in different ways, and at different rates. I was very happy to find PP and later STD (superturbodiesel) for information on my W123’s. The wealth of information is priceless when it comes from a collective of minds that have something that cannot be substituted, experience. I use PP and STD to read and get answers. One thing that I don’t like to do is have my Mac under the car when I am replacing an automatic transmission. That is where I feel the MS manuals are very helpful. They are great for DIY’s. I can reference It whenever I need too and not care about grease marks. The information is correct, which I think is the most valuable part. Kent has “been there and done that” which is a great reassurance in my mind.

I used his manual to replace my transmission. Sure the price is a premium, but I believe we are all spoiled with the wealth of information that is on this site.


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