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  #1  
Old 02-29-2012, 08:25 PM
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1986 190D 2.5, 5 Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 106
1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc. - SHE RUNS!

Hello. Used to post regarding my C280 and am back in a Benz. I just picked up a 1986 190D five speed with 180,XXX miles. The car had been converted to a simple veggie system and stopped running 6 mos. ago.

Please help me with a few issues regarding starting and some misc. wires. Below, please find two wires from around the battery box. What are these to?

Now for the no-start. I reverted the car back to stock fuel system and replaced all of the hoses with proper metric hose (from tank through to pre-pump/from pump to filter/from filter to injection pump). I have also flushed the tank and refilled with proper diesel fuel and am getting proper flow to the filter from the pump (per WSM). I have also replaced both filters.

There was a blue green wire hacked in the glow plug harness that I properly reconnected with industrial crimping.

The battery has a full charge and easily starts my V8 and is the same spec battery (Porsche 928).

The fuse strip is intact and I am getting 12.49 volts to both poles, and ample voltage with the key on glow. The glow light goes on for 8 to 10 seconds.

I have to review the Glow Plug section of the WSM, but what would be the next best thing to check?

Any help in wire identification and next steps would be greatly appreciated.
Attached Thumbnails
1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-imag0565-large-.jpg   1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-imag0566-large-.jpg   1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-imag0567-large-.jpg   1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-imag0551-large-.jpg   1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-imag0556-large-.jpg  

__________________
Michael
Southern California/Santa Monica
1986 MB 190D 2.5, 5 Speed Black and Palomino "Mordechai"
1985 Porsche 928S (32V), 5 Speed
1980 Porsche 928 (16V), 5 Speed

Last edited by Metafly; 03-10-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-29-2012, 09:49 PM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,175
If it's got Fuel and Glow , It should GO.

1.Put a simple 12 Volt DC test light on each Glow Plug.(The Positive Pole) and time How Long the Plugs ACTUALLY get power.
[This will tell you if the Plugs are ENERGIZED ,LONG ENOUGH to Warm the P.C.]

2.CAREFULLY!!! after soaking the GPs for a couple of days with either "Kroil"
or a 1/2 and 1/2 Mixture of ATF and Acetone.For 2-3 Days.Remove the GPs
and test with a 12Volt Battery for HOT,HOT,HOT at the tip only!!!!
[This will tell you how many GPs you REALLY need to replace.]
[You're SOAKING the GPs 'Cause they most likely will be WELDED into the Alloy Head
by Carbon and dried out/cemented Veggie/Improper Bio"D" GOO]

3.Crack EACH Fuel Line Nut on Top of each Injector WHILE CRANKING!!!
[You're looking for Fuel delivery to the Injectors]

4.If y'all haven't found the Problem YET,go ahead and do a Compression(With Leak Down) Test.

5. If the Compression is Good I'd cast a Disparaging EYE on the Injectors.

(My Fear is that the "little Stinker" has suffered "IMPROPERLY Produced Veggie
Ring Stickage".Possibly, with attendant Injector CLOGGING !!!)

Good Luck
YMMV

(Oh,Yeah, make sure it has an AIR Filter of a vintage After the Legions left Londinium.)
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Last edited by compress ignite; 02-29-2012 at 10:15 PM.
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  #3  
Old 03-01-2012, 01:44 AM
Metafly's Avatar
1986 190D 2.5, 5 Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by compress ignite View Post
1.Put a simple 12 Volt DC test light on each Glow Plug.(The Positive Pole) and time How Long the Plugs ACTUALLY get power.
[This will tell you if the Plugs are ENERGIZED ,LONG ENOUGH to Warm the P.C.]

2.CAREFULLY!!! after soaking the GPs for a couple of days with either "Kroil"
or a 1/2 and 1/2 Mixture of ATF and Acetone.For 2-3 Days.Remove the GPs
and test with a 12Volt Battery for HOT,HOT,HOT at the tip only!!!!
[This will tell you how many GPs you REALLY need to replace.]
[You're SOAKING the GPs 'Cause they most likely will be WELDED into the Alloy Head
by Carbon and dried out/cemented Veggie/Improper Bio"D" GOO]

3.Crack EACH Fuel Line Nut on Top of each Injector WHILE CRANKING!!!
[You're looking for Fuel delivery to the Injectors]

4.If y'all haven't found the Problem YET,go ahead and do a Compression(With Leak Down) Test.

5. If the Compression is Good I'd cast a Disparaging EYE on the Injectors.

(My Fear is that the "little Stinker" has suffered "IMPROPERLY Produced Veggie
Ring Stickage".Possibly, with attendant Injector CLOGGING !!!)

Good Luck
YMMV

(Oh,Yeah, make sure it has an AIR Filter of a vintage After the Legions left Londinium.)
Compress Ignite, thanks for the reply. I did crack each injector, but in- between cranking. I will definitely do it the way you suggest.

Do I crack them all at once or one at a time?

Just to be clear, I am soaking the glow plugs in situ? Also, is there a way to get at those while the intake manifold is in place? If so, how?

Thanks again for your time.

Michael
__________________
Michael
Southern California/Santa Monica
1986 MB 190D 2.5, 5 Speed Black and Palomino "Mordechai"
1985 Porsche 928S (32V), 5 Speed
1980 Porsche 928 (16V), 5 Speed
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  #4  
Old 03-01-2012, 03:15 AM
compress ignite's Avatar
Drone aspiring to Serfdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 32(degrees) North by 81(degrees) West
Posts: 5,175
Engine Plays Games with Humans

"Do I crack them all at once or one at a time?"

Since you're looking for fuel flow on a non Starter it doesn't matter.
Put some rags around/underneath the capnuts in case you are Lucky.

"Just to be clear, I am soaking the glow plugs in situ? Also, is there a way to get at those while the intake manifold is in place? If so, how?"

1. Yes,You're just Trying to head off what MAY be a Problem.If you encounter ANY resistance when Loosening STOP and use
1/16 turns back and forth on the GP to try and Coax it free.
2.I don't have the W201 manual.
(I've no idea what this is 'turned up on a Google) http://auto.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/mercedesbenz/mercedesbenz_automobile_product_list.html
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  #5  
Old 03-01-2012, 10:26 AM
Metafly's Avatar
1986 190D 2.5, 5 Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by compress ignite View Post
"Do I crack them all at once or one at a time?"

Since you're looking for fuel flow on a non Starter it doesn't matter.
Put some rags around/underneath the capnuts in case you are Lucky.

"Just to be clear, I am soaking the glow plugs in situ? Also, is there a way to get at those while the intake manifold is in place? If so, how?"

1. Yes,You're just Trying to head off what MAY be a Problem.If you encounter ANY resistance when Loosening STOP and use
1/16 turns back and forth on the GP to try and Coax it free.
2.I don't have the W201 manual.
(I've no idea what this is 'turned up on a Google) Free Mercedes-Benz Automobile User Manuals | ManualsOnline.com

Thanks man. I have the W201 manual and am getting up to speed on the glow plug circuit. I will get some penetrant on the plug threads directly. Thanks for your help.
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Michael
Southern California/Santa Monica
1986 MB 190D 2.5, 5 Speed Black and Palomino "Mordechai"
1985 Porsche 928S (32V), 5 Speed
1980 Porsche 928 (16V), 5 Speed
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  #6  
Old 03-01-2012, 11:30 AM
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Posts: 1,661
It takes a bit more to get to the glow plugs on the 190d ,steps that Ive trusted are to remove the air box ,then the fuel lines ,then the maniold intake being sure not to mess up the gasket ,ive never had a problem ,this will give you ample room to remove all glow plugs for testing ,I personally would replace all with new boshe brand gps so you wont be doing these in the near future. 3 hrs tops , 2 if you stick too it, pay close attention to those manifold bolts ,you dont want to strip these hex type bolts.Its 9 out of 10 times the gps ,one or two might not be glowing or carboned up and youll get a no start if outside temp is 50 degrees or colder.
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  #7  
Old 03-01-2012, 07:12 PM
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1986 190D 2.5, 5 Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 106
A few new quesions?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasinthesun View Post
It takes a bit more to get to the glow plugs on the 190d ,steps that Ive trusted are to remove the air box ,then the fuel lines ,then the maniold intake being sure not to mess up the gasket ,ive never had a problem ,this will give you ample room to remove all glow plugs for testing ,I personally would replace all with new boshe brand gps so you wont be doing these in the near future. 3 hrs tops , 2 if you stick too it, pay close attention to those manifold bolts ,you dont want to strip these hex type bolts.Its 9 out of 10 times the gps ,one or two might not be glowing or carboned up and youll get a no start if outside temp is 50 degrees or colder.
Took this advice too, once I tried to get in there with a universal 1/4 inch...

Picture number 1. What does this lever do on the injection pump and what position should it be in?

I have never seen so much crap in an intake before! A few questions:
What is the best solution and solution to clean the combustion intakes without getting too much stuff in the chamber?

I ran the dieselgiant tests on the glow plugs and every cylinder is well within spec except for #4 (1.5 ohms of resistance). I will bite the bullet and get all new plugs no matter what I find with the plugs/wiring.

Can I flush the hard lines from the injection pump to injectors with anything? Method?

Is there anything I can use in the injectors themselves must I pull them and send them out for cleaning/replacing? Money is a factor.

Thank you in advance.

Michael
Attached Thumbnails
1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-img_0249-large-.jpg   1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-img_0244-large-.jpg   1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-img_0245-large-.jpg   1986 190d Intro, No-Start, Etc.-img_0247-large-.jpg  
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Michael
Southern California/Santa Monica
1986 MB 190D 2.5, 5 Speed Black and Palomino "Mordechai"
1985 Porsche 928S (32V), 5 Speed
1980 Porsche 928 (16V), 5 Speed
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  #8  
Old 03-01-2012, 08:03 PM
compress ignite's Avatar
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Posts: 5,175
Pictures

1. is the Emergency STOP Fuel Shutoff on the I.P.
2. The Intake Runners are some kind of Alloy (Mayhaps Aluminum?)
Soaking them in BioDiesel for a couple of days will loosen up all that CRUD.
(I'd be leery of using Oven Cleaner as some have suggested.)
3.You doan Wanna have ANY of that EGR Carbon/Mixed with Oil Vapor CRAP fall into the Engione.
4.GSXR shows in this post all about EGR "Fixing" and CRAP Removal:

Wastegate actuator swap for OM602.962?

He's working on a 602.962 5 Cyl which is the Big Brother of the 2.2L Four Banger in some W201s.
Actually SOME w201s got the 5 cyl 2.5l Turbodiesel, Now that's a fun car with a 5 spd!
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  #9  
Old 03-02-2012, 11:34 AM
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Posts: 1,661
Its very important to support the fuel lines after getting it back together,If you dont buy new plastic clips you can use some vac hose cut to 1 " pieces and secure with zip ties in various places along the line,it might not look pretty but it works .The reason behind the support is YOU WILL get fuel leaking from the lines at the injector ,the flimsey fuel lines are very needey in this regard for extra support along their run from injection pump to injector.
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  #10  
Old 03-02-2012, 08:54 PM
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1986 190D 2.5, 5 Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasinthesun View Post
Its very important to support the fuel lines after getting it back together,If you dont buy new plastic clips you can use some vac hose cut to 1 " pieces and secure with zip ties in various places along the line,it might not look pretty but it works .The reason behind the support is YOU WILL get fuel leaking from the lines at the injector ,the flimsey fuel lines are very needey in this regard for extra support along their run from injection pump to injector.
Thanks for the reply. I will be sure to support the lines well. I plan on removing them and flushing them with B12 Chemtool. Thanks for the tip.

I have an intake gasket and glow plugs coming on Monday. I plan on getting her back together early next week. Wish me luck!
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Michael
Southern California/Santa Monica
1986 MB 190D 2.5, 5 Speed Black and Palomino "Mordechai"
1985 Porsche 928S (32V), 5 Speed
1980 Porsche 928 (16V), 5 Speed
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  #11  
Old 03-03-2012, 12:32 AM
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ROLLGUY
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,730
Good advice on the injection line retainers. I had to replace 2 of them (injection lines) on my 2.2 when some of the plastic retainers broke. Do yourself a favor and do an EGR delete. Also, adding a simple water injection system will bring the combustion chambers and compression back to life. The N/A engines are easy to do, as there is no need for a high pressure pump or special nozzles. I just used a cheap patio mister kit and placed 4 (in your case it would be 5) of the nozzles inside the air box facing the intake runners. A simple switch on the throttle linkage turned on a second washer pump in the windshield washer tank, misting water into the air stream going into the intake. The benefits of WI are worth every penny spent on parts and water (distilled or R/O). It will clean out all the carbon and reverse the coking effects from the EGR and the use of WVO. The head gasket blew on my 2.2 a few months after installing my WI system, and the pistons and combustion chambers were cleaner than some gas engines that I have torn down.
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All Diesel Fleet
Bio-Fuel Benzs:
1981 300SD
1981 300D
1981 240D 4 spd
1982 300TD
1984 300D 4X4 project car
Others:
1985 Mitsubishi 2.3 TD Pick-up
For Sale: Diesel EGR Delete/Block-off Plate Kit
1985 CA emissions 617 owners- You Need This!
Sanden style A/C Compressor Mounting Kit for your 616/ 617 For Sale + Install Inst.
F.S. Accessory to run condenser fan & compressor clutch together
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  #12  
Old 03-03-2012, 04:38 AM
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1986 190D 2.5, 5 Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLLGUY View Post
Good advice on the injection line retainers. I had to replace 2 of them (injection lines) on my 2.2 when some of the plastic retainers broke. Do yourself a favor and do an EGR delete. Also, adding a simple water injection system will bring the combustion chambers and compression back to life. The N/A engines are easy to do, as there is no need for a high pressure pump or special nozzles. I just used a cheap patio mister kit and placed 4 (in your case it would be 5) of the nozzles inside the air box facing the intake runners. A simple switch on the throttle linkage turned on a second washer pump in the windshield washer tank, misting water into the air stream going into the intake. The benefits of WI are worth every penny spent on parts and water (distilled or R/O). It will clean out all the carbon and reverse the coking effects from the EGR and the use of WVO. The head gasket blew on my 2.2 a few months after installing my WI system, and the pistons and combustion chambers were cleaner than some gas engines that I have torn down.
Thanks for the suggestion. I am not sure I understand fully the set-up and how it works, but I am interested enough in a cleaner burning car to do more research. Is there a definitive thread on the conversion? Thanks.
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Michael
Southern California/Santa Monica
1986 MB 190D 2.5, 5 Speed Black and Palomino "Mordechai"
1985 Porsche 928S (32V), 5 Speed
1980 Porsche 928 (16V), 5 Speed
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  #13  
Old 03-03-2012, 03:00 PM
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ROLLGUY
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metafly View Post
Is there a definitive thread on the conversion? Thanks.
Use the search function on this site to find more about water injection. There is also a lot of info available on the 'net about this subject. I don't have any photos of the system I put in my 2.2, but you can build a simple system using the info above for cheap that will work great. There is no need for a professional "kit" when doing an N/A engine. For a turbo, you would need a high pressure pump, boost switch, check valve, and high pressure nozzle like the kits sold on ebay (Snow, Coolingmist etc.).
__________________

All Diesel Fleet
Bio-Fuel Benzs:
1981 300SD
1981 300D
1981 240D 4 spd
1982 300TD
1984 300D 4X4 project car
Others:
1985 Mitsubishi 2.3 TD Pick-up
For Sale: Diesel EGR Delete/Block-off Plate Kit
1985 CA emissions 617 owners- You Need This!
Sanden style A/C Compressor Mounting Kit for your 616/ 617 For Sale + Install Inst.
F.S. Accessory to run condenser fan & compressor clutch together
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  #14  
Old 03-10-2012, 11:55 PM
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1986 190D 2.5, 5 Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 106
She Runs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks in large part to this forum, I got my car running late this afternoon.

Aside from a sloppy veggie conversion, there was a host of electrical issues in the glow plug circuit causing the GP's not to heat up. In addition to a cut wire to GP #1, two wires (from my first post) were disconnected from the X35 terminal block as well as a flimsy connection to the same terminal from the positive side of the battery.

A few set back like trying to find the reason I was blowing the gp fuse strip (Weird Glow Plug Readings and Blowing Fuse after Glow Plug Change) and making the mistake of not feeding one of the throttle linkages on the right side of the glow plug harness. I had to partially remove the intake to get it in order. Otherwise, compared to other cars I have done this kind of work on, I found the 190D to be relatively easy.

The car runs cool, with no smoking or nailing and fires up immediately. The only odor I can sense is burn-off from chemicals used while cleaning the top of the motor and intake. The exhaust looks very clean with no noticeable odor.

I will be changing the oil and flushing the rad in the next couple of days.

I have never worked on a diesel before, nor have I driven one. The car will be such a nice compliment to my other very fast car.

I have about $1200 into the car (not including registration) and can see a few hundred more in miscellaneous parts and repairs in the near future (e.g. cruise servo, a few interior bits, sorting out the HVAC system). I also snapped off the PS rear brake bleeder head and will either get it out with an easy out or buy two used rear calipers. I'll never get why people tighten small bolts so tightly.

I replaced all low pressure side fuel hoses, all new glow plugs, intake manifold gasket, 80 amp glow plug fuse strip, new battery, drained and cleaned the tank and replaced both the pre and spin on fuel filter.

Next up is pull the cluster and check why I have a row of lights on including the alternator light on. Hopefully, it is something simple like a loose exciter wire or bad ground.

I will be searching for answers here. Thank you so much.
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Michael
Southern California/Santa Monica
1986 MB 190D 2.5, 5 Speed Black and Palomino "Mordechai"
1985 Porsche 928S (32V), 5 Speed
1980 Porsche 928 (16V), 5 Speed
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  #15  
Old 03-11-2012, 12:07 AM
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ROLLGUY
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,730
Good to hear that the car is running. I hope you will join us on on our next cruise:
M.B.E.G. SoCal Spring Coastal Cruise to the Petersen Saturday April 21st
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All Diesel Fleet
Bio-Fuel Benzs:
1981 300SD
1981 300D
1981 240D 4 spd
1982 300TD
1984 300D 4X4 project car
Others:
1985 Mitsubishi 2.3 TD Pick-up
For Sale: Diesel EGR Delete/Block-off Plate Kit
1985 CA emissions 617 owners- You Need This!
Sanden style A/C Compressor Mounting Kit for your 616/ 617 For Sale + Install Inst.
F.S. Accessory to run condenser fan & compressor clutch together
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:07 AM
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