Technical help for OM617 injector pump - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Kingman · #1 02-27-2012, 08:09 PM

So, I screwed up. Bad. Taking the car to an experienced MB mechanic is NOT an option. Please don't say it, I am well capable of figuring this out so long as I have a little guidance and the right information.

It all started with an exploded vacuum pump on an '83 300TD. The second the pump exploded the car started billowing black smoke and was a little down on power, also very hard to cold start. It ran great beforehand. During the "repair" process a new timing chain was run on as the old one was stretched 16* at 290k miles and new Bosio nozzles installed.

Before we did what I say below, the car would run but poorly and billowed black smoke. Even when turning it over to get it started.

We took apart the front of the injection pump timer to see if it had jammed from the explosion/frozen up as the centrifugal advance plate would not rotate freely on the springs, it gets stuck wherever I turn it to and does not spring in any direction. The springs, pins, and weights appear to be in good shape. We did not remove the entire timer from the timing chain and pump.

Technical issue. While tinkering with everything, a few parts did end up falling into the engine at various times throughout this adventure. A woodruff key, a spring seat, and a pin that goes inside the spring on the timer. 25+ hours later they are out. (When pulling the oil pan to get the pin we found tons of vacuum pump parts.) Because a few things fell into the engine, the injection pump shaft was turned NOT in relation to the timer chain sprocket. Therefore the pump was no longer anywhere near in time with the engine. We set the engine to 24* BTDC and turned the injection pump shaft until fuel started spewing out of the NO. 1 injector line fitting. (This might be the mistake, can't tell if it needs to be 15* ATDC or 24* BTDC) Yes, the spring and whatever-it-is below that were removed like the procedure says. So we think we've now synched the injection pump back up with the rest of the engine. Put the front of the timer back in line with the woodruff key (what a pain in the ass with the springs, pins, and weights!) Get everything back together and think we might be in business. Not.

While cranking the engine it BILLOWS out black smoke and will not run now. It'll fire a little with some ether (without the glow plugs, duh) but won't run. Thought it may just be flooded from how it was running before, but after a while of cranking the engine with the stop lever held down until there was no more black smoke that isn't the problem. Obviously the pump is still out of time.

The next step is to take the injection pump out and align it from the backside with the crank set at 15* ATDC. Right?

What all could have been damaged when the vacuum pump exploded?

Oh on a side note, and I'd like to find the guy that designed this engine and kick him square in the nut sack for not giving it a front cover like every other engine in the world. I swear, the Germans do the dumbest things imaginable.

Diesel911 · #2 02-27-2012, 11:57 PM

15 degrees after top dead center after the Compression stroke is correct if you are using the Fuel Injection Pump Timing Locking Pin, AB Light or the RIV Method.

If not the Fuel Injection Pump is timed at 24 degrees before Top Dead Center.

I have never had a Fuel Injection Pump Timer out so I cannot comment on what is normal for it.

However, with all of the Vacuum Pump Parts dumped it may be possible that the issue you are having is because a Piston Hit one of the Valve and bent one or more. This would mean at the very least a loss of compression.
Have you taken a good look at the Camshaft Bearing Towers to see if any of them cracked.

A compression test and or a leak back test might be helpful.

It also might be interesting to see of any of the Metal went through the Oil Pump and made it into the Oil Filter Housing.

Back to the Timer. The Timer is attached to the Intermediate Shaft and that Shaft Drives the Fuel Injection Pump by way of a splined Collar. I do not know if it is possible for that shaft to get bent or not.
So far no one who has had a Vacuum Pump Failure and had Engine damage has said they replaced the I Shaft.
But, it is unlikely the Fuel Injection Pump was damaged.

Govert · #3 02-28-2012, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingman

Because a few things fell into the engine, the injection pump shaft was turned NOT in relation to the timer chain sprocket. Therefore the pump was no longer anywhere near in time with the engine. We set the engine to 24* BTDC and turned the injection pump shaft until fuel started spewing out of the NO. 1 injector line fitting. (This might be the mistake, can't tell if it needs to be 15* ATDC or 24* BTDC) Yes, the spring and whatever-it-is below that were removed like the procedure says. So we think we've now synched the injection pump back up with the rest of the engine. Put the front of the timer back in line with the woodruff key (what a pain in the ass with the springs, pins, and weights!) Get everything back together and think we might be in business. Not.

While cranking the engine it BILLOWS out black smoke and will not run now. It'll fire a little with some ether (without the glow plugs, duh) but won't run. Thought it may just be flooded from how it was running before, but after a while of cranking the engine with the stop lever held down until there was no more black smoke that isn't the problem. Obviously the pump is still out of time.

The next step is to take the injection pump out and align it from the backside with the crank set at 15* ATDC. Right?

What all could have been damaged when the vacuum pump exploded?

Oh on a side note, and I'd like to find the guy that designed this engine and kick him square in the nut sack for not giving it a front cover like every other engine in the world. I swear, the Germans do the dumbest things imaginable.

If you remove the spring and valve inside the delivery valve holder, the begin of the injection is when the fuel stops flowing out. When the fuels starts flowing out, it is the end of the injection.

If you don't use the locking pin, set the engine at 24 degrees BTDC in the compression stroke of cylinder one and set the IP on its timing marks:

Timing will be more or less correct after installation, adjust it by swivelling the pump and the drip tube until one drip every second comes out.

Remember that the pump needs to be in the full-load position during timing, so use a wire to put the lever of the pump in the full-load position.

barry123400 · #4 02-28-2012, 09:05 AM

You did check to make sure the cam lobes where pointing upwards on the first cylinder when you got the drip? The injection pump can be installed on the wrong power stroke. Lots of smoke issues etc in that situation.

It may not be as bad as you think.

Kingman · #5 02-29-2012, 01:16 PM

Beautiful. Thank you fellas for the information. We're in the process of removing the pump, that rear bracket bolt securing it to the pump sure is a pain to get to.

Fortunately the engine cranks as if it's got full compression and does not have any misses when it's running. The cam and towers look just fine. Hoping that's a good typical sign of an OK engine. When we ran the new chain on, it didn't appear like the chain had skipped any teeth although it's obvious a few vacuum pump parts got chewed up and spit out.

If we get everything set correctly and it still runs like ass I'll make a compression tester for it and give 'er hell. Honestly, I'm a little scared to at this point...

Stevo · #6 02-29-2012, 02:54 PM

As to that back bracket, I read on here a while back about making one or more of the holes into slots so the 13mm bolts can be started first. Think I'll look into that next time as that bracket is a bugger.

47dodge · #7 02-29-2012, 05:31 PM

Check to see if the pump shaft got bent, it can happen. This is the shaft that drives the ip, not the ip shaft itself.

And yes double check to see that you really are on no1 compression stroke. Easy to think it is and it is not.

Kingman · #8 03-01-2012, 01:10 AM

Both valves were closed at 24* BTDC. Aligned the marks on the IP, bought a new gasket, triple checked where the crank was, and put the pump in so the markings on the block and the front of the pump were lined up.

Put everything back together and tried to prime it the best we could with the primer pissing fuel everywhere, and cranked it till the battery went dead.

It's interesting that the picture on here shows the IP marks pretty much straight up. The marks on my pump were more to the left and almost inline with one of the flat head screws. Unless I'm looking at the picture wrong lol.

Back at it tomorrow morning. Going to take a turkey baster with some diesel in it and squirt some into the lines. Hopefully it'll fire up after the system primes, but I was smelling some diesel through the exhaust before the battery died. Hard startin SOB I guess. Then quadruple check the engine timing.

I kind of noticed the pump timer wobbled a slight bit when the engine was cranking. That must be the bent shaft or there's a bearing inside the timer right? Not really much I can do about it.

Quote:

As to that back bracket, I read on here a while back about making one or more of the holes into slots so the 13mm bolts can be started first. Think I'll look into that next time as that bracket is a bugger.

I ended up using a fine pick through the side between the IP and the oil filter canister to catch an edge and spin that bolt off, was bout to conjure up some sort of nifty tool to do the job.

Slot the hole where it bolts to the pump? That's what I did. Threaded the bolt in while the pump was out and slid the bracket in from underneath.

bipolardave · #9 03-01-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingman

Both valves were closed at 24* BTDC. Aligned the marks on the IP, bought a new gasket, triple checked where the crank was, and put the pump in so the markings on the block and the front of the pump were lined up.

Put everything back together and tried to prime it the best we could with the primer pissing fuel everywhere, and cranked it till the battery went dead.

It's interesting that the picture on here shows the IP marks pretty much straight up. The marks on my pump were more to the left and almost inline with one of the flat head screws. Unless I'm looking at the picture wrong lol.

Back at it tomorrow morning. Going to take a turkey baster with some diesel in it and squirt some into the lines. Hopefully it'll fire up after the system primes, but I was smelling some diesel through the exhaust before the battery died. Hard startin SOB I guess. Then quadruple check the engine timing.

I kind of noticed the pump timer wobbled a slight bit when the engine was cranking. That must be the bent shaft or there's a bearing inside the timer right? Not really much I can do about it.

I ended up using a fine pick through the side between the IP and the oil filter canister to catch an edge and spin that bolt off, was bout to conjure up some sort of nifty tool to do the job.

Slot the hole where it bolts to the pump? That's what I did. Threaded the bolt in while the pump was out and slid the bracket in from underneath.

If the IP timing is like the OM616, the timing mark you pointed out shouldn't align with the key groove when you install it.

The groove should be shifted two teeth counterclockwise.

mespe · #10 03-01-2012, 08:57 AM

good luck on your project, you did ensure that the cam timing was set properly. just one tooth off may result in a no start. If it winds up being the IP cam, or other internal IP part, I might have what you need.

Kingman · #11 03-01-2012, 09:44 AM

I would guess that one tooth off on the cam would show up on the crank as being at least 15* off. How much is one tooth worth? With the cam marks aligned the crank lines up between 0* and that tall pin.

I've just got that "feeling" that we did it right and the ***** just needs to be primed A LOT. But of course there's probably something that was missed. Put 3 deep cycle batteries on the charger last night, so I think we'll have plenty of juice.

barry123400 · #12 03-01-2012, 10:47 AM

I am just posting this the last time to perhaps save you grief. It is not only the crank indicator used alone to get the injector pump timing right. The first cylinders cam lobes must be pointing generally upward at the same time. You may be well aware of this or perhaps not. I cannot automatically assume you are.

You can have the crankshaft marking right and the cam with the lobes pointing downward at the time of the injection pump installation and drip test.

The engine will smoke and have little power etc in that senario. Maybe you did or maybe not check the cam lobes position. Where the first two cam lobes tending upward or downward when you drip timed the pump?

To repair you slide the pump back out. Turn the crank one complete rotation and install the pump again. You do the drip test to find out what stroke the first cylinder is on first though.

Govert · #13 03-01-2012, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bipolardave

If the IP timing is like the OM616, the timing mark you pointed out shouldn't align with the key groove when you install it.

The groove should be shifted two teeth counterclockwise.

Why? That only applies to certain pumps where the timing mark was placed in the wrong place. It the picture above the timing mark is near the centre of the screw, that is the correct position. If the timing mark is to the right, an adjustment of three teeth is needed.

Kingman · #14 03-02-2012, 12:24 AM

Did something right, after running to the parts store this morning and getting a new Bosch primer pump for $20 and clearing all the fuel out of the cylinders she fired up. Barely smokes now compared to before and has good power, definitely need to move the pump around to fine tune it. It's now got a miss at idle so it's something that got messed with. Doesn't feel like it dropped a full cylinder and it did go away for a minute. Right off idle it goes away and the engine comes together nicely. Should be able to get that squared away.

New timing chain, Bosio injector nozzles, all rear bushings, shocks, tires, brakes, pump primer, fuel filters, flex disk, vacuum pump, Lubro-Moly purged, and thermostat. Transmission and turbo only have 5K on them. Anyone local to Vancouver, WA want to buy a damn near mint '83 300TD?

This car was one hell of a ride to work on for a 19 year old kid used to working on Nissans and Fords...let me tell ya lol.

pyrojoe22 · #15 04-07-2012, 01:32 AM

I was gonna ask if your glow plugs were working correctly, or on long enough. I know my engine WILL NOT start without them on for at least 10 seconds. And I'm timing my IP right now. So what did you figure out about that timing mark on the IP?? Is it supposed to be centered with the splined gear or off set a couple teeth?