I'm new to this site, but I have been checking out several MB sites. I can't seem to find a site that tells me about different motors in the various MB's. Which ones are better (I'm sure they are all good), and which ones are most reliable. I have an 83 240D which I have been told is indestructable. I am looking to upgrade and buy a newer one, but has the performance and reliability stayed as high on the newer ones? I am looking for something between 1990 and 1995. I have been looking at a 1995 C220 at my local dealer, but so far I am not impressed.

Basically, I want to compare engines and find out which ones has stood the test of time and have high quality that MB owners are expecting. Compared to my deisel, everything else looks weak.

I would like some feedback. If I am wrong, please tell me!
Thanks.

There was a recent post addressing this topic . I believe its title was 'Which diesel'. A search on 616/617 or 603 should turn it up.

Why not upgrade to a 300D of the same 123 body? They're time tested and proven and you already know the car. I personally hate 85 through 95 Eclass and 300Ds. They are ugly to me. The 96 and newer E300 Diesel is a beautifully retro-styled car. I dated a girl who had one and it drove beautifully and seemed rather well built. It only has 60,000 miles on it so the jury is still out on its durability. It does have alot of electronic gizmos in the engine which bring a whole new chapter to the table.
Just a thought...

__________________
1982 300D Turbo "Helga"
380,000 miles

cclem83MB,

You happen to own one of the better machines ever produced by any company and sold as an automobile. While it is remarkably rugged and reliable, where you live the forces of nature trying to reclaim the structure, and restore disorder, are aided by the annual salting of the roads. Unless the car is structurally unsound, I am at a loss to suggest a more durable alternate. Especially if yours is a manual transmission unit.

To help you with your question, it is a normal Mercedes-Benz engineering process to introduce new technology in increments on a given chassis, and make significant changes when the chassis is revised. The 190E/190D (W201) cars were the next sedan chassis to be built after the W123 (240D and 300D here).

In general the W201 gas engine techology was carried over from, or extended from the W123 series 200 and 230E in Germany. It has been my personal experience that these engines, given reasonable care, are nearly bulletproof. I have had a great deal of experience with the W123 230E and the W201 190E 2.3. I know of no instances where the engines failed to provide at least 180,000 miles of near trouble free service. Most have run well past 200,000 miles and continue to do so. Rust, and challenges to the structure like meeting a pick-up crossing in front of the car at 35 miles per hour, have claimed two cars (no one was injured), but none of the cars I "know" have succumbed to mechanical malladies. This record rivals the record for Diesel reliability.

So, along with considering Diesels, I would encourage you to consider Mercedes-Benz gas engine cars, with around 100,000 miles. I think it is reasonable to expect a car with a good maintenance history, good compression, and a solid body to last another 100,000 miles. It will need proactive maintenance to gain your confidence, but the extra attention as you "get to know" the car will pay off later.

I would stay away from the 1990/1991 350SD/SDL and the 1992 through 1994 or so S Class Diesels. These cars have an engine that I, and others that had them fail, suspect include a design flaw. The consequence of this flaw is the need to rebuild the engine, salvaging only the crankshaft and block, and most likely the head, at a cost of $7,000 to $10,000 depending on the details of what is replaced.

All the other Diesels seem pretty solid, as does the W124 line of gas powered vehicles. As Mercedes introduced aluminum heads to the Diesel product line they seem to have had a few problems. Aluminum is a peculiar material, compared to cast iron or steel, and it sometimes teaches about its peculiarities only by trial and error. This led to designs that are susceptible to cracking under normal use, where the old cast iron units were far less likely to crack under normal use.

If you find an otherwise good example and the head is suspect, deduct something from your offer to compensate for the expense of rebuilding the head, and then get it done. That comment or strategy goes for gas and Diesl models. The lower end on all these vehicles should last until nature's unrelenting need to restore disorder takes its toll on the rest of the vehicle.

So, while many of us that frequent this site, and board in particular, really appreciate the unique character of the Diesel powered products, your search should not overlook the W123/W126/W124/W201 and later cars, Diesel or gas powered. When you find a model you like, find an example that has been cared for mechanically, and has a solid body. I have lost a few cars to rust, which can be accelerated by poor body work after even a minor accident. I look for cars that have not been hit or had paint jobs, replaced body panels, etc. It increases the chance you will have a long term "companion."

Hope this helps and good luck, Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Jim,

That is exactly what I was looking for!!!! I know that my 83 240D is just about the best car ever made, and with only 121,000 miles on her, I'd be fpoolish to get rid of her. I will keep looking for another, but will take my time and research them. Thanks for the info. I will certainly check out the models that you suggested. In the meantime, I am going to have my 83 painted, and the tranny overhauled. You are right about the salt. It's been murder on my drivers side doors, but only along the bottom. The rest of the body looks great for the year. I am only the third owner, and I don't think it has had ANY accidents. I bought it from a Pastor who had it given to him by one of his parisioners. She's been very well kept and pampered. With only 121K, and from what I hear, this engine will take 400-500K, I'd be crazy to not keep her pristine and classic. Thanks for the advice. It's invaluable. You sound like you know what you're talking about (experience). Good luck with all of your MB's.
Chris

P.S....to Jim,
This one has an automatic transmission, and it's giving me trouble. Won't shift unless I let off the gas. Someone said a vacuum problem. I wonder if I need to just replace the whole thing and start over. Any ideas? Worst when I tromp on it, better if I ease into it, but still not the way it should be. It's like driving a standard with the gas for a clutch.

Chris

Chris,

I am not experienced with automatics, even though I have owned a few now. I have been lucky so far, and none of them have given me any trouble.

This forum, however, has many members with a broad and deep base of experience with your car's transmission. From what I have gleaned reading some of those threads, I would suspect nothing major is wrong with your transmission. Vacuum seems to be the means of communication between the engine and transmission, which on a Diesel is synthesized with a couple of parts that can fail over time. Diesel's do not have a vacuum in the intake manifold like a gas car, and the transmission came from a gas car that already used the manifold vacuum to detect throttle position. So Diesels have a vacuum pump to provide the vacuum for the brake booster, and all the other stuff, like door locks, A/C controls, and so on. This vacuum has nothing to do with throttle position so, to communicate with the transmission about things like throttle position, these other parts are added. After twenty years they deteriorate and leak, which can lead to a series of confusing results, depending on what fails and in combination with what other stuff. Be aware that the vacuum pump itself can fail and cause serious problems if the failure allows loose parts to fall into the engine.

The transmission itself seems to be reasonably robust and shifting problems like the ones you describe seem to be corrected by a combination of fixing leaks, making adjustments and doing normal fluid and filter changes.

Try searching for the topic, and if you still need specific help, post another question asking for some specific directions on what to do. Someone with some real grease stains on their hands and arms from doing the job recently will respond with what you need on the transmission, the vacuum pump, the vacuum system and so on.

To quote one of the significant contributors to this forum, Larry Bible, the longevity of the engine is tied to the regular changing of the oil. His quote is "change it hot and change it often" and these are good words of advice.

Good Luck, and keep the rust at bay for as long as you can! Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

'83 was the last year for the 240D...and they generally have all the bells and whistles...sunroof, etc. They were (IMHO) the apex of what Mercedes stood for: value, overengineering, durability, comfort, ease of maintainance, looks that age well, etc. PLUS you can get a super nice one that will work for 10 years or more for under $5K!

The one you have sounds great...ADSITCO, Performance Products, and other aftermarket vendors have increasing lists of sheet metal and mechanical/trim parts availalbe quite reasonably. A 300 may seem a step up (I'm looking for one also) but the 240 has simplicity. They will last forever, the last in a list of "permanent cars" such as the Model L Lincoln, Wills Ste Claire, most Packards, etc. After '83, electronics crept in and mean that all Mercedes will begin to give expensive trouble at about the five year mark.

Join MBCA for the magazine, get ADSITCO, Performance Products and other catalogs, a Haynes manual...and you're set! I ENVY you!

I have turned the 240D into my "daily driver" for a few thousand miles (actual showing 120,xxx). It is the most excellent car (automatic) for a daily commute that covers 18 miles with two redlights as long as you drive it like you would a bus. For the prior twelve months I had been doing this commute in the 300D - I believe I enjoy the 240D a little better BUT if I am going to get on the freeway I take the 300D or the E320.
The other day the oldest boy and I took the E320 on an in-town trip. He said that whenever he rides in it he feels he is riding in a Bentley when compared to the two W123's but neither of us have ever rode in a Bentley but I did have to agree with him.

__________________
Jim

Thanks. I've changed the tranny fluid and filter, so I think I'll post another thread and see what comes up.
See ya.

cclem83MB

The transmissions on these cars are very reliable. They are very dependent on the exacting amount of vaccuum they receive, or they will seem like they are failing, Big Time!

I bought a beautiful 300CD with no reverse. Apparently the owner was told that she needed a new trans, so she donated it to a charity, where I found it. That night, I went on this forum and found out that the reverse has an adjustable band, accessed on the outside of the trans-and these sometimes had a habit of the locking nut coming loose, and backing out. Therefore losing reverse. On this car, I could feel it grabbing a little in reverse, so I took a chance.

BIngo, shore nuff, that's what it was!

On Vaccuum;

Try this, it is easy.
On the various vaccuum lines which go into the firewall by the brake booster-Disconnect them all and cap off the engine side of them. You will be isolating the car body of its vaccuum supply.

Test drive the car and see if it shifts ok. If it does, then your tranny is ok, and there is a leak in the lock system, or ventilation system.

What you would be doing is giving your trans a good solid reliable vaccuum signal, which is what it wants.

DO NOT CHANGE YOUR TRANS BEFORE GOING THROUGH ALL THE TIPS ON THIS FORUM!!
Even if you put in a brand new transmission from MB, it would shift exactly the same (poorly) if the vaccuum signals are poor.

__________________
Ed
1981 300CD (Benzina)
1968 250 S (Gina) 266,000 miles!
1983 Alfa Romeo GTV6 (Guido)
1976 Jaguar XJS-saved a V-12 from the chevy curse, what a great engine!
1988 Cadillac Eldorado (better car than you might think!)
1988 Yamaha Venture (better than a Wing!)
1977 Suzuki GS750B
1976 Yamaha XS 650 (sold)
1991 Suzuki GSX1100G (Shafty Gixser)
1981 Yamaha VX920RH (Euro "Virago")
Solex Moped
1975 Dodge P/U camper


"Time spent in the company of a cat, a beer, and this forum, is not time wasted!"

Thanks, I have ordered from AdsitCo, and they are great to deal with. I had to replace the break booster upon buying the car last year. Also bought an oil pan from them, (because I back over a tree stump--the car was alot lower than I thought--duh!). The more I hear about this car the more I think I got a SWEET deal. I have only had her since last June. I will get the MBCA mag.
Thanks again for the info.

I know what you mean about the 240 on the highway. I laugh with my kids when I drive, that I need to tell everyone to "go around, go around" and then once I get up to speed, I'm approaching a light again, DARN. The 320 sounds like just the car I'm looking for. I will keep looking and suggest that model to my dealer. In the meantime, I will continiue to love my 240. Even after purchasing a newer one, I will keep her. Thanks for the feedback. Have as many good times with the kids as you can. They grow up so fast. I have one grown and one going off to college next year. Only one more left at home. Happy driving.

It sounds like you have some invaluable info there. I will certainly try all those things before changing the tranny. Thanks. At $60/hr at the dealer, I may have my local mechanic try some of it. I am not as mechanical as I wish I were and my time is limited. I have not given up on her yet. She's a beauty.
Thanks for the feedback.

Often people criticize the 240D for lack of acceleration...my '83 with 250k showing will happily cruise all day at 80. I believe that the key culprit is that the power curve of diesels differs from that of ICE engines, which takes getting used to. After not driving my '73 beetle for a while, I am astonished by its neck-snapping acceleration after driving nothin' but diesel for a few weeks.