Starting uphill in a manual 240D - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Stugist · #1 05-06-2012, 01:07 PM

I'm just learning how to drive a stick, and the biggest issue I have is starting from a stopped position while on a grade. I'll have both feet on the clutch and brake, and I'm not quick enough yet to move forward without rolling back quite a few feet. When I try, I end up killing it.

I've seen people say on manual cars to use the E-brake on hills, but from what I've seen that only works with an incremental (lever) brake, not a full-release one like on the 240D.

Any suggestions/tips from you 4-speed owners out there?

bamba · #2 05-06-2012, 01:18 PM

I typically time my stop such that I mainly coast to a near stop, so that I barely need to use the brakes. Even when I do need to brake while stopping on a hill, I will brake until I'm close to a stop (2-4 mph), and then stop braking, and engage the clutch and gas. Then as I'm about to stop (thanks to gravity), I release the clutch pedal to *just* about the sticking point, while giving it some fuel (maybe 1000 rpm). It takes a bit of practice, but even on steep hills you can maintain this 'partial-clutch + a little fuel' situation with both pedals, while keeping the vehicle at a dead stop or nearly so. If you are rolling back slightly, or moving forward slightly, you can adjust your clutch position and RPMs accordingly. Then when you're free to go, just give it some fuel while fully releasing the clutch. You shouldn't roll back at all.

It takes some practice, but you'll get the hang of it. FYI, I have no idea if maintaining this 'sticky' position with the clutch pedal is good or bad for the tranny. I don't have many hills around here, so I figure that even if it's bad for it, my lack of frequency will prevent much long-term harm.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge of manual trannys will chime in.

Stretch · #3 05-06-2012, 01:20 PM

It will work on the emergency brake.

I suggest you start for now with the emergency brake on. Press down slightly on the accelerator (what would you guys say - gas pedal?) and then slowly pull the clutch up until you feel it biting... pull the clutch up a little (very little) bit more and you should feel the back end of the car lowering into the ground. At this point it is going to be safe to release the parking brake.

This is as close as a 240D will get to launch control!

Longer term exercise =>

Find an empty car park with a slope and practice holding the car on the hill with the clutch.

You should be able to keep the revs on the engine very close to idle and hold the car on the hill with the clutch pedal - NO BRAKES!

BoiseBenz · #4 05-06-2012, 01:30 PM

You need to:
***Select neutral, right foot on brake, left foot to set e-brake
***Left foot clutch in, select first, right foot apply some fuel while letting clutch out partway until you hear/feel engine "strain" against brake. Hold both feet right there in "middle" position!
***Left hand to release brake, while feeding in more fuel and releasing clutch to allow for smoothest start.

DO NOT let slippping (clutch partway out, brake on) happen for more than just the tiniest increment necessary, as it obviously is sending all engine power into clutch heat and wear.

Later, you'll phase into:
***Right foot on brake, clutch in, select first, no ebrake necessary
***Release clutch until engine begins to labor (therefore you have removed all "slack" from the system, and it's ready for "instant" (at least in 240D terms) action).
***Hold clutch right there, quickly move right foot from brake to fuel and add some fuel while releasing clutch to "move off smartly." Even on the steepest hills this will have you rolling back hardly at all, without having to bother with ebrake shenanigans.

These techniques can just as well be practiced in a flat, empty parking lot. I would advise to not rapidly do more than perhaps 10 per session, so as not to overheat the clutch and flywheel. (when the engine is turning, and the clutch is partially engaged, that system is acting just like the regular wheel service brakes, and converting motion directly into heat; and there's no real provision for it to escape from that transmission front housing)

BoiseBenz · #5 05-06-2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Army

It will work on the emergency brake.

Hah, hill practice techniques from a Nederlander!

I would have expected Monaco, maybe.

Prost!

junqueyardjim · #6 05-06-2012, 01:40 PM

Well it is experience that you are missing. Where do you pick up that experience? Keep on practicing. We all have or had to learn. Remember, your clutch is not fickle! It always acts the same way - it always engages the same way, at the same rate and at the same place. So you can practice that and get the feel of it. Now if you are on a grade and the car is going to roll back, you have to allow for that. Now if you have a normal good working "E" brake, that makes the problem easy. Set the "E" brake and the car holds. At the point you want to move forward, say as the light turns green or the car in front begins to move, you start to let the clutch out and as it picks up the load of moving the car forward, the operator has to increase the throttle position a little and at the same time with you hand release the "E" brake. That should and does work on even a very step grade if the brake is working well, though the operator has to be on top of things-the steeper the grade the more the throttle has to be increased and your judgement will be stressed a bit. I bet if you look around a bit that you could find a ramp somewhere with little or no traffic. A loading dock, a steep driveway or even a steep hill on some country road. Don't go to the top to practice but stay close to the bottom and keep out of the way of other vehicles. There use to be a device called a "Hill Holder". It was standard equipment on a few cars when equipped with what was called, Automatic Overdrive. But that is long ago. I remember my Dad teaching me to start on a hill with that very big 1936 Cadillac I learned to drive on. It still had the shift on the floor and did not have an easy to release emergency brake. It was hard to learn and that car was totally designed for a big person to drive. And I wasn't a big person back in 1943 or maybe 1944. But he allowed for a lot of practice and I learned it well.

Stretch · #7 05-06-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoiseBenz

Hah, hill practice techniques from a Nederlander!

I would have expected Monaco, maybe.

Prost!

Thanks for that - the avatar says otherwise! I'm English - I used to live in a very very hilly part of England too. I miss my hills - it is far too sodding flat here...

ah-kay · #8 05-06-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Army

Find an empty car park with a slope and practice holding the car on the hill with the clutch.

You should be able to keep the revs on the engine very close to idle and hold the car on the hill with the clutch pedal - NO BRAKES!

Don't you worry about burning out the clutch. It is OK now and then.

OP: try reverse parking on a slope. That would be fun also.

Diesel911 · #9 05-06-2012, 02:21 PM

Your Parking brake has to be working really good to make use of it. And, yes the Hand lever type between the Seats is much easier to use (My Volvo Diesel is has a Manual Transmission).

My old 1953 Chevy Pickup has an arrangement similar to the Mercedes Parking Brake.
You simply have to take your time and let the people behind you wait while you are careful at coordinating things to get moving.

Another trick I have used but with care is as someone comes up behind you at a stop let your Vehicle roll back a little before they stop. They usually stop where ever they are when they see you coming towards them and leave some space between them and your vehicle. That often keeps them from riding your rear Bumper

Tanksowner · #10 05-06-2012, 02:43 PM

I remember when I re-learned how to drive a manual a few years ago when I had to drive a 6-speed box truck for work (fun times). I used to have lots of trouble on hills. But seriously, all it takes is practice. I never used the parking brake when I learned; IMO the best way is to just try it as if you were normally driving. Start with a small hill so you can get used to the reflex. As you move backwards, rev the car to about 1250-1500 rpm, and slowly let out the clutch. Keep doing that until you're comfortable, then try a bigger hill when you're ready. A lot of it is muscle memory and just getting used to how your car drives. You'll be fine

Walrus · #11 05-06-2012, 03:03 PM

Shucks... Try doing this with 48,000lbs of freight behind you, in a R-Model mack that had seen its better days, with traffic behind you, so close as you cannot see them in the mirror...

moon161 · #12 05-06-2012, 05:27 PM

Practice. The technique described w/ the e brake is effective, I used it on some steep launches in Pittsburgh w/ fully loaded 240D. Hills as steep as I have seen anywhere, and more of them.

Stop set the brake. Build power and friction, try and drive away, release the e brake as you do. IME, the idle governor does not have enough authority to launch w/ the clutch only on a hill.

panZZer · #13 05-06-2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junqueyardjim

Well it is experience that you are missing. Where do you pick up that experience? Keep on practicing. We all have or had to learn. Remember, your clutch is not fickle! It always acts the same way - it always engages the same way, at the same rate and at the same place. So you can practice that and get the feel of it. Now if you are on a grade and the car is going to roll back, you have to allow for that. Now if you have a normal good working "E" brake, that makes the problem easy. Set the "E" brake and the car holds. At the point you want to move forward, say as the light turns green or the car in front begins to move, you start to let the clutch out and as it picks up the load of moving the car forward, the operator has to increase the throttle position a little and at the same time with you hand release the "E" brake. That should and does work on even a very step grade if the brake is working well, though the operator has to be on top of things-the steeper the grade the more the throttle has to be increased and your judgement will be stressed a bit. I bet if you look around a bit that you could find a ramp somewhere with little or no traffic. A loading dock, a steep driveway or even a steep hill on some country road. Don't go to the top to practice but stay close to the bottom and keep out of the way of other vehicles. There use to be a device called a "Hill Holder". It was standard equipment on a few cars when equipped with what was called, Automatic Overdrive. But that is long ago. I remember my Dad teaching me to start on a hill with that very big 1936 Cadillac I learned to drive on. It still had the shift on the floor and did not have an easy to release emergency brake. It was hard to learn and that car was totally designed for a big person to drive. And I wasn't a big person back in 1943 or maybe 1944. But he allowed for a lot of practice and I learned it well.

Well a clutch dosnt act the same all the time---it wears out over time.

Jim H · #14 05-06-2012, 07:38 PM

In a level parking lot, practice starting out with the engine idling by using only the clutch pedal. Don't let it stall, but tease it until it begins rolling. Then, stop the car and to it again. ....and do it again...

You don't need do this all day, but it will help you develop the 'feel' of the clutch and it "friction zone" where it is not fully engaged, nor is it fully disengaged, also called 'slipping' the clutch.

You will soon develop a very delicate touch with your left foot to keep it from stalling.

Then, your left foot will be better able to let the pedal up to the 'friction zone' which should be able to hold you on a slight uphill, at least long enough to get your right foot over from the brake to the accelerator. Then just add rpms and smoothly ease the clutch out the rest of the way.

The Ry Guy · #15 05-07-2012, 12:33 AM

What I like to do is come to a stop normally (clutch in, foot on brake). When the light turns green, floor the accelerator and slide your left foot off of the left side of the clutch pedal. In a 240d all that might happen is a mild chirp from the tires

In all seriousness what I like to do (and this takes some practice, as do the other methods mentioned) is come to a stop normally (clutch in, foot on brake). I hold the brake down with just enough pressure to keep the car from rolling backwards with the ball of my right foot (big thick spot just below your big toe). When the light turns green, tilt your right foot over and blip the throttle to bring up the engine speed and at the same time start releasing the clutch. You'll feel it grab, bog the engine down maybe a bit, so you keep adding more fuel and less brake all the while modulating the clutch pressure until you're underway, without moving backwards save for maybe a few inches.

I have found and taught others that if you plant the heel of your left foot into the carpet and modulate the clutch by rocking your foot back and forth, it is much easier than trying to modulate clutch pressure with your whole leg. Depending on where in the stroke the clutch starts to engage you may have to use your leg to initially get the clutch disengaged and/or for the last bit of travel. I have also used this method to teach people who are learning to drive a manual transmission how to get a smooth clutch engagement on level ground as well.

Warning!!! this takes some practice to get right, but I think it is much easier in the long run than monkeying around with the e-brake.