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  #31  
Old 05-21-2012, 03:41 AM
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Oh dear...

First things first. Just to make sure.

Remove the clock gauge from the engine and just play with it a bit. When you push the probe tip really slowly you'll see that the the big needle swings round in a clockwise direction when you push up. Letting the probe drop will mean that the needle will swing the other way in an anti-clockwise direction.

If you push the probe far enough you'll see that the little needle within the large gauge counts the number of whole rotations the big needle swings through.


When the clock gauge is completely removed from the engine and there is no pressure on the probe the big needle should be pointing at zero on the big scale and the little needle should also be pointing at zero on the little scale.

Note that you only get changes in the reading on the gauge when you push the probe upwards from this position. Note also that you are going to measure a deflection of the valve as is goes downwards into the the engine. So you are measuring a deflection in the other direction.


To make sure that the clock gauge still registers the changes you want to measure you need to push the probe some way into the clock gauge before you start. You could for example push the probe in so that the little pointer is pointing at "5" => so the big needle has swung round five times. This is going to be more than enough to measure the deflection of 2mm that you need to measure.

Once you have fitted the clock gauge in position - and the probe is resting on the valve spring retaining cap - and the probe on the clock gauge is as vertical as possible - and the probe is compressed sufficiently to allow a drop of 2mm => then you can turn the outer part of the clock gauge so that the big needle is aligned with the zero on the big scale.

At this point you are ready to start measuring. At this point you are ready to turn the crank in a clockwise direction.



I hope you take these pedantic instructions in a non insulting way - I am trying to help - not trying to teach you how to suck eggs.
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #32  
Old 05-21-2012, 06:48 AM
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yep. That is indeed how I took the 2nd measurement.
I set the gauge up about the middle of its travel range so it had plenty enough room to drop and take the reading. I spun the face of the dial around to 0 it out before I started rotating the cam.

So, now what do I make of the readings?
Should I be still focusing on the timing, or move on to something else as being the cause of the smoke?
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84 300SD 274K
38K miles on flatplate heat exchanger and various diesel/veg blends. prior to that 4K miles on unheated veggie blends with kero and DinoD.

Last edited by angst; 05-21-2012 at 07:28 AM.
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  #33  
Old 05-21-2012, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angst View Post
yep. That is indeed how I took the 2nd measurement.
I set the gauge up about the middle of its travel range so it had plenty enough room to drop and take the reading. I spun the face of the dial around to 0 it out before I started rotating the cam.

So, now what do I make of the readings?
Should I be still focusing on the timing, or move on to something else as being the cause of the smoke?
OK you've got a measurement of 7 degrees at the crank then?

And this is after top dead centre?

So according to the data in the FSM / shown in the DIY in the wiki that's impossible.


My advice is to do either of the following


1) Check the measurement again.

Repeatability is everything. If you can consistently get the same answer then you are more likely to trust it!

I realise that you might have staged the photographs you posted... but I'm a bit worried that you were a bit close to the end of the probe travel in the clock gauge => the small pointer looks to me to be far too close to zero / too close for comfort?



2) Look for an existing woodruff key / offset key - you might find one that has been fitted the wrong way round.

PeachPartsWiki: Camshaft Woodruff (offset) Key install

All you have to do is remove the bolt in front of the camshaft pulley to see if there is one
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #34  
Old 05-21-2012, 02:21 PM
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Oh yes and the camshaft code =>

You need to find that. It is on the back end of the camshaft - opposite end to the big cog.

If you can't find it - post up your engine number - stamped into the block near to the IP
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #35  
Old 05-21-2012, 09:35 PM
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Since my notch alignment reading (about 0 or -2) seemed consistent with my (+7) measurement via the gauge method I figured it was a solid test.
Repeatability is sensible so I will do the test a couple more times to be sure.
I can't imagine that a woodruf key could have been in there wrong for all the 40k miles have had it and had decent performance. It has only been in the last 800 miles that it has started smoking up a storm.
Im open to all possible ideas though as I am totally clueless.

Ill have another look for that cam or engine number to eliminate the possibly that my engine is some rogue animal.
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84 300SD 274K
38K miles on flatplate heat exchanger and various diesel/veg blends. prior to that 4K miles on unheated veggie blends with kero and DinoD.
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  #36  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:40 PM
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The smoke thing just doesn't add up to me

Here is my thread on smoke caused by IP and cam timing off
87 TDT black smoke all the time
Note that the IP was 2 teeth off and the smoke was black. By the time I got the timing close the smoke had diminished to almost nothing. Cheers Dan
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  #37  
Old 05-21-2012, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angst View Post
Since my notch alignment reading (about 0 or -2) seemed consistent with my (+7) measurement via the gauge method I figured it was a solid test.
...
I hear what you are saying however the whole point of going through the whole 2mm lift / drop method is to make an accurate reading. If you end up with a result that is "about" 0 or 2 degrees there is something wrong. You should be able to get the same result every time within 0.5 degrees - you've got a graduated scale that is good enough for that on the front of the crank.

The thing that doesn't make sense however is that your measurements seem to be suggesting that you've got a shrinking chain. There's been a lot of talk about chain stretch / elongation but there's not much evidence of chain shrinkage...

Quote:
Originally Posted by angst View Post
...

I can't imagine that a woodruf key could have been in there wrong for all the 40k miles have had it and had decent performance. It has only been in the last 800 miles that it has started smoking up a storm.

...
It does seem unlikely doesn't it?

But there is no harm in checking to see if something is fitted. It would be good to know if there is a key fitted or not.


Note also that the FSM expects about 2 degrees of elongation after 20,000 km - that means that if nothing has been touched for the last 40,000 miles (that's a lot more than 20,000 kilometers) you would expect to have at least the same amount of elongation - may be as much as 4 degrees chain elongation.

I don't trust your measurement - sorry!
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #38  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:07 AM
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first order of business tomorrow will be doing that reading several more times along with a pic of the reading so there is no doubt what it is saying.

Also on tap for first thing tomorrow is reading the Bigblockchev's thread there a couple more times. I've only done one lap though it and my eyes are blurry but it seems kind of encouraging in a way. That visual pump timing align method mentioned also seems interesting.

Bigblockchev your symptoms have some similarities to mine (other than I'm not so sure about the similarities of the smoke color) and I am fiddling with the same area of the car so that is encouraging.
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84 300SD 274K
38K miles on flatplate heat exchanger and various diesel/veg blends. prior to that 4K miles on unheated veggie blends with kero and DinoD.
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  #39  
Old 05-22-2012, 06:18 PM
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Tests repeated. Lots of wrangling with the dial gauge to ensure it was not slipping during the test. Ive reached the conclusion that there is no way to align the dial gauge dead vertical.
Three dial tests. All came out at 7 (just shy of half way between the 5 and the 10 mark.
Two notch alignment tests. Both came out right even with the pin which I guess is about minus 3.
I took video that shows the process and the reading. The vid camera focused niclely in a that I coudn't get the still camera to. It caused a lot of botched tests trying to hold the camera with one hand.
It will certanly be tomorrow before I can get the cussing edited out

If I get enough time to look for the cam or engine numbers again after I put everything up before a wifey obligation I will put those numbers up here.
Update: no luck still finding the numbers near the #5 glow plug. Number on the front of the block is 617 016 03 01. On the block under the #3 glow plug is MB3
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84 300SD 274K
38K miles on flatplate heat exchanger and various diesel/veg blends. prior to that 4K miles on unheated veggie blends with kero and DinoD.

Last edited by angst; 05-22-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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  #40  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:31 PM
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A couple more tests today. Still getting the same results of +7 on the balancer.
More scrubbing around the passenger side of the engine looking for an engine number with no dice. Even pulled the coolant hose off but no luck.
I did find a number on the back of the cam though. It says +11. Pic attached.

I have resorted to searching the seedy of underbelly of the interwebz for info. Found a page of the FSM that differs greatly from the instructions in the Wikka.
Here is how that page describes it. (paraphrased for brevity)
Quote:
Fasten the dial gauge so that the small needle rests at a pre-load of 3mm.
turn dial to 0 the large needle.
Turn the crankshaft until the dial gauge has gone back 2mm to 1mm.
value on balancer should now match value for "intake value opens"
Depending on what my camshaft code actually is that is anywhere from 9 to 11 for new and 11.5 to 13.5 for used according to this flavor of manual.

The method described in this version means a couple revolutions of the big needle whereas I have been testing with only about 3/4th a full revolution of the big needle.
the result of testing in this manner was the balancer was pretty much off the gague in the +25 neighborhood.


Attached Thumbnails
Smoke.  Clouds and clouds of smoke. 1984 300sd-smaller_tower.jpg  
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84 300SD 274K
38K miles on flatplate heat exchanger and various diesel/veg blends. prior to that 4K miles on unheated veggie blends with kero and DinoD.

Last edited by angst; 05-24-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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  #41  
Old 05-24-2012, 03:48 AM
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Well done for finding the camshaft code. That's a believable number even though it isn't mentioned in the FSM.

I have a code 11 on my non-turbo OM617 - but you have a turbo (OM617a) don't you?

OM617 camshaft advice req'd



RIGHT - what to do next?

I think you need to

1) Call in the big guns!

Brian Carlton
Beagle
Vox Incognita
Layback40
Charmalu
That German guy in Las Vegas with the unimog - sorry I've forgotten your username!
Tangofox007
whunter
Govert
funola

And any others

We need you!!!!!!!


Please note the order of people listed above is as they came out of my head - not an order of importance.


2) Ask someone who has access to more of the books than just the FSM CD to find out about cam 11 and see whether 7 degrees ATDC is correct or not.

3) Remove the bolt holding the camshaft cog in place to check for an offset key.

4) Do not pull the engine apart!

5) Do not pull the engine apart!

6) Do not pull the engine apart!

7) Ask someone who lives near you to come and help make this check.
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #42  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:48 AM
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That's a lot of play in your turbo. If the smoke isn't a distinct fuel smell, I'd look at the turbo seals. Used turbos are fairly cheap. Check your down pipe for oil.
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  #43  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:21 AM
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I don't know if any of you helping with the diagnosis saw the"Goldenrod" filter that Angst is using. It is a filter popular in the early days of WVO usage, especially the single tankers, which appears to be what Angst is doing.


He did not mention in the body of his post, but if you look at his sig, he has at least 14k of single tank blending WVO/diesel:

" 84 300SD 260K
4K miles on veggie blends with kero and DinoD no mods. 10K miles on flatplat heat exchanger and various diesel/veg blends. "

The timing work done so far is good stuff but probably not the problem. I'd get that turbo replaced first (post #8 says 1/8" side to side play on impeller- that's a lot!).

Single tanking WVO often get lube oil dilution with the WVO, which thickens the lube oil and could possibly plug oil galleries if a piece of polymerized WVO get's stuck in an oil gallery (to turbo???). Thicker lube oil can also impede oil flow, resulting in damage to all bearings.

After replacing the turbo, I'd suggest continue the hunt and look at the injectors, IP, rings, compression etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angst View Post
84 300sd
It is smoking ridiculous amounts. I have to turn it off at a stoplight to not be enveloped in smoke.

Earlier this winter it was smoking a bit and also had a clanky hammering/nailing noise in the engine.
I did the valves and ran a Diesel Purge can via the looped bottle method and changed the filters.
The noise seemed to settle down but the smoking continued.

Now in the warmer weather it is no longer making hammering bad engine sounds but the smoke is eco-terrorist levels.
The smoke is white to gray-ish. Black smoke only during hard acceleration.
It does not seem to be consuming oil or water. The underside of the oil cap is regular black color.
Holding a piece of paper at the exhaust it doesn't get wet or black.

I've tried the following recently:
Take a bit of motor oil out so that the level with a cold engine and dipstick wiped once is level with the top of the range.
Cleaned the banjo bolt and line to the alda,
Left the fuel cap off and drove around.
Loosened each of the 17mm bolts on the injectors one at a time. Each one will change the sound of the idle (lowers it).
Changed the primary filter again (goldenrod bowl type)
Search smoke topics here on the forum.
Open hood and stare at engine blankly.

Repeating the last two steps over and over again.

I'm feeling a bit lost and scared this could be the end of an old friend as this seems like some serious internal engine bad mojo that is beyond my ability.

What should I try next to diagnose this?
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Last edited by funola; 05-24-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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  #44  
Old 05-24-2012, 06:15 PM
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Army
Yep its a turbo. I didn't realize 300sd came in any other flavor.
Brian C did weigh in early in the thread with thoughts that it is either oil or coolant before I got sidetracked on this timing measurement thing that has that I have kind of stalled out on.
From your link regarding cam numbers that one guy replied to you.
Quote:
by jt20 - Type 11 Replacement cam for type 05, main type "Late" so, it appears the #11 is a later casting and not mentioned in the outdated fsm
Wagnerwerks
by check the downpipe I reckin you mean unbolt the exhaust and look for oil in the first section coming off the turbo?
Ill take another look at the play in the intake side of the turbo and see if I can better quantify how much play is in it.

Funola
interestingly enough the smoke started in November at the same time I stopped blending in alt fuel for the year (I run 100% dino D in the cold months). I had initially thought that I was suffering from bad fuel at the pump.
There is a little crack at the top of the mating surface of the goldenrod spin on filter. I don't know if is sucking air and if that could cause smoke like this but Ill post a pic of that up in case it is relevant.
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84 300SD 274K
38K miles on flatplate heat exchanger and various diesel/veg blends. prior to that 4K miles on unheated veggie blends with kero and DinoD.
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  #45  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
Well done for finding the camshaft code. That's a believable number even though it isn't mentioned in the FSM.

I have a code 11 on my non-turbo OM617 - but you have a turbo (OM617a) don't you?

OM617 camshaft advice req'd



RIGHT - what to do next?

I think you need to

1) Call in the big guns!

Brian Carlton
Beagle
Vox Incognita
Layback40
Charmalu
That German guy in Las Vegas with the unimog - sorry I've forgotten your username!
Tangofox007
whunter
Govert
funola

And any others

We need you!!!!!!!


Please note the order of people listed above is as they came out of my head - not an order of importance.


2) Ask someone who has access to more of the books than just the FSM CD to find out about cam 11 and see whether 7 degrees ATDC is correct or not.

3) Remove the bolt holding the camshaft cog in place to check for an offset key.

4) Do not pull the engine apart!

5) Do not pull the engine apart!

6) Do not pull the engine apart!

7) Ask someone who lives near you to come and help make this check.
Thanks for the invite to the party!! Where is the Beer ?? !!!!!

I havent read every detail in the thread but after checking the turbo seals ~ is oil getting in there?, if there is not a large amount of oil going in there ~ how much oil is there in the inlet pipe to the manifold?, it needs a compression test & a check on how much blow-by there is.
I am leaning strongly to stuck rings ~ a dose of "death in a jug". It has the hallmarks of that.
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1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
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