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  #1  
Old 06-12-2012, 04:55 PM
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Clutch master cylinder bad?

Has anyone had a clutch m/s go bad without seeing it leak?? We replaced a manual tranny in a friends euro 300D, I test drove it, shifts fine, miller time In a couple days its not shifting good, wont go into reverse, grinds. So I check the fluid level, its still up. We bleed the system via the squirt can, twice. No go, still grinds. We pull the clutch slave. Its showing signs of a little leakage, thats gotta be the problem, install a new one, still grinds, no change. Next we pull the tranny and expect to see a problem with the pressure plate. Looks like a fairly new disc,T/O bearing and p/p. So back to the question, could it be a bad clutch master even if its not visabially leaking ?

On what might be a side note. The pilot bearing really hung up pulling the tranny. It was jammed in there and we had to punch a hole in the bell housing rotat the engine and undo the pressure plate allens to get things apart. Good thing its wasn't the one piece tranny could this pilot bearing issue have had anything to do with the the Original problem.
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #2  
Old 06-12-2012, 05:32 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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When the clutch master begins to fail it usually can be pumped a bit but will bleed past the worn seal and allow the clutch to slowly engage so you have to pop it into neutral at stop lights. Usually you can get by this way for a few weeks until you get tired of it and change the master.
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  #3  
Old 06-12-2012, 05:50 PM
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Yes, I think the pilot bearing problem might cause the original symptoms if it's causing the input shaft to spin with the engine even if the clutch is disengaged.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #4  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Yes, I think the pilot bearing problem might cause the original symptoms if it's causing the input shaft to spin with the engine even if the clutch is disengaged.
I sure hope your right, cause theres nowhere to go next except that clutch master. We did adjust the eccentric also. I have the tranny ready to back in tonight when my friend shows up.
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #5  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:29 PM
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Did you replace the pilot bearing? Is the shaft free to spin now?
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #6  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
When the clutch master begins to fail it usually can be pumped a bit but will bleed past the worn seal and allow the clutch to slowly engage so you have to pop it into neutral at stop lights. Usually you can get by this way for a few weeks until you get tired of it and change the master.
when you pull down the carpet to change it, its leaking, right?
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #7  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Did you replace the pilot bearing? Is the shaft free to spin now?
I have a new pilot bearing and have used a little emery cloth on the input shaft
where it will ride. The shaft was never not "free to spin", Just to be clear, it was the pilot bearing "froze up" on the end of the input shaft. The bellhousing was an inch or so away from the engine but would come no further. Since we had installed that tranny a couple days earlier its kind of a mystery as to why the bearing froze on the shaft. We did not get into the clutch when we swapped trannys. It didnt go into the pilot bearing any harder than usual. Does it still sound like this event could cause the problem? Hopefully the yarding on the tranny didn't cause any more problems
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #8  
Old 06-13-2012, 07:51 AM
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FWIW, I have never seen one of these master cylinders fail without depositing fluid on or below the drivers side carpet. Doesn't mean it can't happen though.

Have you examined CLOSELY EVERYWHERE for sign of a leak? The sign of a leak might not mean that it's wet, paint might be gone indicating a leak.

Good luck with it.
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  #9  
Old 06-13-2012, 09:01 AM
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We got it all back together last night and she shifts and drives just fine. I have to admit, I didn't think a new pilot bearing would solve the problem and was getting mentally prepared to do the master cylinder.

I haven't seen that many faulty clutch masters but the ones I have replaced were all leaking.
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #10  
Old 06-13-2012, 10:52 AM
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They can leak internally and not drip on the carpet. But as I said you can usually pump them up for a good little while before total failure.
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #11  
Old 06-13-2012, 11:08 AM
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Thanks Tom, Good too know. The problem sure acted like it was in the hydraulics, live and learn
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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