Envirosafe Users Question?? Not cold enough?
 

So I had a shop redo my A/C and I supplied him with a new R4 compressor, drier, expansion valve, pag oil and 2-6 oz. cans of Envirosafe and told him after vacuuming the system to charge the Envirosafe at 0 vacuum pressure as instructed by their websire. The only thing was waiting for the temperature switch being ordered as the old one broke off the old dryer. Now my operation pressure is 45 on the low side and 225 on the high side but my system is not that cool. It is 90 and muggy out. What is wrong with this picture? Did they not do a good job flush cleaning the system? I'm going to ask them to look at it but they may respond that they only put the Envirosafe refrigerant that I asked them to put in. Is my condensor plug? Should they have tested it when they flushd cleaned? Thoughts?

Envirosafe worked well for me till it leaked....for some reason I remember using 3 cans?

The r12 capacity is 1.2Kg = 2.64 lbs or 42 oz.

The Envirosafe says 1 oz of ES = 3 oz r12

So they suggest 42/3 = 14 oz, so maybe I'm a little light but the 12 oz. I put in shouldn't be remarkably different. They sell 5 oz cans in addition to 6 oz cans. So maybe 3 cans of 5 oz is the way to go. Is 45 on the low side and 225 on the high side in 90 ambient weather in line? Something is amiss.

I must have used 3 5oz cans then....I don't remember the pressures for envirosafe, but I thought they were supposed to be lower than cfc type refrigerants. Once I realized that envirosafe was pretty much propane with a pine-sol scent, I switched to propane. Once that leaked out I rebuilt the system and used 134a.

I agree something is wrong. Envirosafe did a great job cooling when I used it.

Why not use R12, espescially living in Texas?

perhaps they thought the instructions for 0 vacuum meant to install to an open system... if so, you have a lot of nitrogen or 12 still in the system.
the pressures you report make me think either it's got air/nitrogen in the lines, or the condenser is dirty... is the aux fan coming on?

I am not sure why enviro safe says to install at 0 psi, but i did mine at full vacuum just like any other refridgerant. Get about 33-34 degrees out of the center vent. Low is around 25 psi, don't remember what the high was.

The system was converted by the PO 4 years ago. They evacuated and then backed off the pressure to 0 so presumably there nitrogen in the system. I am waiting for the temp switch to install so the aux fan will not work until I get the switch in.

What car of yours is charged with ES-12? You know i posed the question in another refrigerant thread whether one should charged at ES-12 with 0 pressure like Envirosafe recommended or the typical -30 vacuum and no one replied. I may have to vacuum and reinstall ES-12 as they are only $6 per can x 2.

Can anyone else chime in on this very question with ES-12: have you charged ES-12 at 0 or -30 vacuum and how has it been working??

with 2 x 6 oz cans obviously it cannot be overcharged under vacuum, so they must be referring to a 30 pound or greater can.

my 300d spec is 2.9 pounds of R12 so I think you're low. I would add another can of ES12 instead of wasting what's in there.

I charged at 0 psi....as I said, it worked well while out was in there

I've been using it for years. It's way better if you vacuum regardless of what they tell you. You arent using the Industrial 12 are you? I've never had as good of performance with that. And 45 may be a bit high. How much oil would you estimate total is in the system?

No, I'm using the regular ES. I think there is 8 oz. of pag oil. So I do have 2- 6 oz cans in stock. Do I add a can of 6 oz. have them vacuum and add 2 cans so it will be charged under vacuum? If they vacuum, do they have to add oil again?

What do you mean by "zero vacuum pressure?" I sure hope that this is not the exact wording that was printed on their instructions.

If it only held 2 cans and your low side is at 45, my concern was too much oil in the system. But, pulling a vacuum will allow more refrigerant in the system. Also, what is your idling at? If you have a very low idle, your pressures will be higher. Just something else to think about. The ES-12A has been in my 240D for many years. After delivering my coupe to its new owner in NC, we drove home in 90+ weather for 4 hours, blowing at 37-38 with the blower on 2 out 3 on the speed setting. It was comfortable. Keep in mind, tinting the windows makes a HUGE difference. My car has MB Tex everywhere, and vinyl door panels...etc. All the plastic get very hot if left in the sun, and builds up alot of heat even driving down the road with the AC on. My 350SDL is tinted, and it stays VERY cool in the car with the vent temps only getting to 48 or so.

if they call for 14 oz, do not put 15 oz. it is better to under-fill than to over-fill.

over-filling by just 10% reduces system efficiency by 40%. don't over-fill!

From Envirosafe: If desired, pull a vacuum to check for leaks. On small AC systems like most passenger motor vehicles - COMPLETELY RELEASE VACUUM BEFORE CHARGING. Unlike freon, ENVIRO-SAFE does not become caustic if moisture is present. Charging under a vacuum on small AC systems may result in an overcharge. Any overcharge may cause loss of cooling efficiency. On dual air systems (some SUVs and vans) and the larger systems found in diesel pusher RVs and Buses should be CHARGED UNDER VACUUM using ENVIRO-SAFE R-134a

When I charged up my cars with the ES stuff I didnt pull any vacuum...

I just plugged in the gauges, started the car, tripped the fans and started filling until the gauges were at pleasing numbers.

I think your low side number is a bit high.. did you measure this number at idle or at high idle (1500rpm)?

With my 190E, I get temps in the low 30s at the vent. My only current complaint is that I lose a considerable amount of cooling performance at a normal idle.

But I'm not sure if thats caused by the refridgerent or the condition of my current system or just an inherent design flaw..

Isn't that too cold? Won't your evaporator freeze up?

Readings were taken at normal idle around 750 rpms. So if my low side is 45 and I'm shooting for 35 what does it indicate and how do I get it down? I think he put in 8 oz. of pag oil, would that be too much? Also if there is too much oil, can the oil be removed with vacuum or does it need to be flushed again?

When I said low 30s, I meant more like mid 30's.. I think it averages around 35-38.

I believe I have a small leak at one of my schraeder valves so I think eventually (slowly) my cooling abilities will diminish..

James, there are tools available from the auto a/c supply houses that allow you to change the schrader valve in a charged system.

At 88 ambient temperature, I'm showing 64 psi low side and 260 psi high side. I'm bringing it back tomorrow morning. Maybe I show try having him vacuuming the system and recharge at a -30 vacuum rather than 0 vacuum??

Thats high for sure! ES-12 is supposed to have similar values are R12 (less 15 psi for the high side)

So what you should be seeing at 88F ambients:

20-24 Psi Low Side
165-215 Psi High Side

You are probably over charged. Either too much ES-12 or too much oil or somthing in the system.

With 12 oz. of ES-12, it should not be overcharged with refrigerant. What is confusing me it Envirosafe recommending charging at 0 vacuum pressure. Would that lead to an overcharged system and higher pressures on a hot installation day? Presumably it will have air in the system at 0 pressure before charging. So hot and so frustrating after you spend good money, arrggghhh! If they don't have a solution in mind, I'm going to ask them to evacuate and recharge at -30 vacuum.

You could try contacting Envirosafe:
Check out this page...
How efficient is ENVIRO-SAFE

My 190E was originally just charged with Freeze12, it eventually leaked out enough that the compressor would not engage. So all I did was open up a can into the a/c system until the gauge pressures were satisfactory. I didnt measure the weight that went in...

Not to muddy the waters anymore but I came across this stuff on the Enviro-Safe website:
http://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/details.asp?id=152&t=air-enhancer&Trying=ON

It sounds interestesting but I've not seen much about it on forums and such.

Thank JamesDean. I spoke to the company and the first tech said I had to drive it for a week or so to work the ES and the oil through the system, I had only driven it like 10 miles or so. A 2nd tech who had been there a long time said that it acted like it was overcharged with 88 ambient, 64 low side, 260 high side. When I explained that the shop only put in 2 cans totaling 12oz in the W123 system requiring 2.33 cans, he didn't know the answer and is going to confer with another tech and call me in the morning. He says that that they recommend charging with 0 vacuum because a little humidity is ok with ES and that charging with a vacuum would call for more ES and could lead to overcharging? Anyways, I'm going to drive it for a few days to see if it gets better before bringing it back to the shop.

I have to really wonder how it is possible to not vacuum and still be able to put any refridgerant in without removing the air first. Air will not do your system any good, it is not a refridgerant, and unless you pull a vacuum it will be in there.

As far as putting too much, weigh it on a digital scale as you put it in, stop when the correct weight is in. unless you are real good at a/c putting it in without weighing it can get you in trouble. I am not an expert by any means but have learned it really is something that should be done by the book, without short cuts.

Yeah, I'm thinking that charging without a vacuum doesn't make sense. Especially when the work is done when it's 90 degrees and humid out the air that you let in to create 0 vacuum is dense and humid anyways.

Does anyone know the guidelines of how much PAG oil to put in a new R4 compressor? The shop put in 8 oz. I talked to Envirosafe and they said one possibility is that there is too much oil in the system. Anybody?

Did they flush the old oil out? If not and then they put 8 ozs in it probably does have too much oil in. 8 ozs is what most people put in after a complete flush of the system. Some even put less in.

Yes, they flushed out all the old oil. Took it back to the shop this morning when the ambient was 79 degrees. The low side showed 42 psi. The mechanic said I can't expect the A/C to perform well until I complete the system and get the A/C temp switch in so that the aux fan will kick in with the higher temps we have been having. I finally got the A/C temperature switch ($58 wholesale, no tax at the dealer) so we'll see if it operates better as it has been unusually hot. Today it suppose to be 95 here in CT today. Envirosafe called me back this morning. The 3rd tech tells me that the R4 compressor should get 4 oz. of oil after flushing. WTH? He also suggest that I switch to the industrial strength ES (which is charged with vacuum) because the 300D needs all the help it can get. My indy charged the regular ES with 0 vacuum. I'm going to give it a few days of running and reevaluate.

I tried to upload the document, guess its to large HERE is the link.

Looks like it is overfilled.

No temp switch= no aux fan. aux fan is needed to remove heat from the system. Why did you bring them incomplete parts and have them start the job?

A temp switch should not cost more than $15 online.

I didn't, the temp switch broke off when he tried to remove it from the old dryer. As it was late Friday afternoon and MB dealer didn't have in stock so had to order it. Try telling your wife to wait a few more days for web delivery when it's 95 and humid out! Especially after we sold her 97 E420 which had ice cold A/C with 198K miles. Peace is sometimes costly...

Your link says:

GM R4: Drain and measure oil. Replace with the same amount of new oil + 1 oz. (3 oz. maximum). Add 1 oz. for drier.

From Yak's DIY Compressorworks R4 writeup: "The FSM section 83-520 has specific quantities to add depending on what you’re doing and how much oil you’ve removed. The compressor re-install section, 83-522, says a total capacity of 170 cc, or 5.75 ounces."

So I gather the recommended range is 4- 5.75 oz. which puts me at 2 1/4- 4 oz. (shop added 8 oz.) too much oil less what spilled when he put the compressor in. When I attach the manifold to the high pressure valve, oil does squirt out. I may have to squirt some oil out to get the pressure down and recharge one 6 oz. can. You can search forever and not find any definitive answer to the oil capacity for the R4 compressor, thanks.

the reason you cannot find the R4 capacity of oil is there is no capacity... just flow of oil through it.
there is no sump.
the R4 changeout on a new compressor takes between 2 and 5 oz of oil.
on a flushed system and a new compressor and dryer, 8oz is ok, but it must be distributed through the system somewhat. most will go in the dryer, and the condenser. only a little goes in the compressor, as it will spill out when you install it in an MB...
if your system was operating fine, and the compressor is all that was removed, and the shop put in 8 oz of oil... you need to pull the compressor, and the dryer, flush out the evaporator, and the condenser and the lines, and recharge with 6 oz of oil in the new dryer, and condenser, then recharge with your refrigerant...
I cannot fathom charging a system with atmosphere in the lines...

The compressor seized 2 or so years ago. We didn't fixed because we had the ice cold A/C in the 97 E420. The shop flushed out the system, replaced the drier, expansion valve and compressor and added 8oz. of PAG oil. He charged at 0 vacuum as per Envirosafe's instructions. I replaced the A/C temp switch and the aux fan is working. I may just recharge under vacuum. As it is, it's like not having A/C after spending $400 labor + $260 for parts. The only question is getting the oil from 8 oz to 4-6 oz....and it's freakin' hot out.

no need to worry about the oil, 8 oz on a flushed system is perfect.

just have them vent the ES, and evacuate the system and charge with the correct amount of ES under vacuum. you'll be fine.

it's best to have them give the car a hard vacuum of at least 30 minutes on the pump to remove any water from the lines due to the air in the lines.

Recap: Turns out there was a leak at the compressor O rings. As there are no instructions, indy used the yellow washer on the high side and red on the low side. It was leaking at the yellow washer. Although it held vacuum, it leaked out a week later under pressured on the yellow, high side. So he used the green on the low and the red on the high side (thinking red= high pressure). His boss wanted to charge me a half hour labor but I refused as it leaked out. As it is, I have to get 2 more cans of ES-12a.

So I'm getting 64 degrees at the middle vents (I rigged it open for A/C) in 90 ambient temp. Wife is happy, peace at last at home.

64 degrees seems a bit high for 90F outside.

In my 190E it'll get into the high 30-40s (ES-12a)

My dad's 300SD (Es-12A) gets low 50s..

Unless you're talking about vents temps with the engine at idle..

yes 64 is a bit high. even with max fan on a hot day I get upper 30's, unless idling in traffic. Are measuring at idle ?

These past few weeks have seen 85-95F up here. Only at a stop does my cooling system fail me, but once on the road above 2k rpm its nice and cold, I would guess 30-40s easily.

42 degrees at 77 ambient. Maybe I am overcharged. I will have to check.