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  #16  
Old 07-29-2012, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto View Post
Could they be rollers from the chain? Are they ferrous?

If you can rock the crank back and forth slightly - can't hurt much at this point - does the oil pump chain move?

Sixto
87 300D^2
It is ferrous metal tube, length-wise I am not sure as they are in fragments. The metal tube is very thin and is 1/4" in diameter. There is a circular fragment that I can measure. Any parts inside the engine like a 1/4" diameter metal tube? It cannot be rod or crank shaft parts. It is too fine. I am not familiar with engine internals so I cannot tell whether it is from the engine cut out picture. It is not from the 2 spring loaded parts. I am charging the battery now to spin it again.

Any idea how hard it is to turn the engine with the injector removed. May be my expectation is out of line?
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  #17  
Old 07-29-2012, 07:03 PM
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I am of the opinion that you have had a failure inside the engine. It should be pretty easy to turn with the injectors out.

Have you pulled the cam cover and looked down into the chain galley?
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  #18  
Old 07-29-2012, 07:50 PM
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I'll check the 603 block in the garage (when I can get to it) but you might be describing a piston squirter. Maybe it choked on something and disintegrated?

I can turn a 603 with a 12" ratchet with one hand with the injectors in place and I'm probably in the 10th percentile in arm strength in this forum or any forum. Injectors out should make it easier. You'll fell a swell of resistance as a piston gets to TDC but it should never feel like you're hitting a solid stop.

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  #19  
Old 07-29-2012, 08:08 PM
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I'm pretty sure the squirters are cast pieces. If I had to guess what the bits are they look like worn out chain roller pieces.
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  #20  
Old 07-29-2012, 08:09 PM
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Nope, the piston squirters are cast aluminum and have more of a rectangular cross-section until it tapers to the business end. There's a harder material insert visible at the business end that's more like 1/8" than 1/4". There's a BB close to the tip of the squirter before it bends up to squirt the underside of the piston.

Might it be something from the underside of the valve cover? Isn't there a built-in oil separator feature? Maybe the spring clip of the oil filler cap?

Sixto
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  #21  
Old 07-30-2012, 12:50 AM
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When the VP went out on my friends SD, the engine was still hard to turn after replacing all the broken parts. The problem was a piece of metal between the timing chain and one of the gears. I was able to see it from above (head removed), and retrieve it with a magnet. I don't think there is any way a piece of metal can get between the bearings and journals if the crank, so a piece of metal between the timing chain/gear seems likely. If you find the metal that is keeping the engine from turning, and are able to remove it, you may have dodged a bullet. If not, the engine will need to come out (I know you don't want to hear that!)...Rich
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  #22  
Old 07-30-2012, 01:50 AM
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I tried to put the jigsaw pieces together. The shavings are 2 kinds.

a) The ferrous tube is actually a metal band 1/4" diameter and 1/4" long.
b) The other ferrous shaving is also about 1/4" diameter but it is kind of irregular shape.

I will try to gather all the pieces together and take a high resolution picture. I can turn the engine with a 12" ratchet handle bar but it is harder than I thought. May be it is my perception. I removed the VP. There is a metal cover inside. Can I remove the cover and take a look? It is held by 3 bolts.
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Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

2 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.
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  #23  
Old 07-30-2012, 03:38 AM
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Yes, the cover is basically an assembly tool. On all but the earliest 603s replacement pumps come with instructions to leave out the cover in place of a redesigned gasket.

Can you get a dental mirror into the sump to see the oil pump chain?

I wonder if any of the chain guides have a metal sleeve.

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  #24  
Old 07-30-2012, 04:57 PM
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Put one of the 1/2 tubes on a steel surface and hit it with a hammer. If they flatten out, look for something soft like a ball bearing cage. If they break / shatter , look for rollers from a chain.
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  #25  
Old 07-31-2012, 02:52 AM
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Fragments pictures

I used a magnet to scoop up all fragments in the oil pan. Some parts are 2, may be 3 rings, 1/4" diameter and 1/4" wide. The other is of irregular shape. Cannot tell what they are but is circular shape with small diameter.

Any idea where they came from inside the engine. They were small parts.


All fragments, ring on lower portion of picture


Probably 2 ring bands.
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Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

2 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.
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  #26  
Old 07-31-2012, 03:14 AM
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Looking more and more like bits of a chain.

Sixto
87 300D^2
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  #27  
Old 07-31-2012, 05:49 AM
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I have been reading this and keep thinking it might be in the cam area. Have you pulled the valve cover yet?

Also wondering about the small chain which drives the oil pump....is this the 603 motor? I am less familiar with the 603 but on the 617 turbo there is a short chain which drives the oil pump which takes a real beating and is very easily overlooked since you cannot see it.
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  #28  
Old 07-31-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto View Post
Looking more and more like bits of a chain.

Sixto
87 300D^2
X2


ah,

If you had one of those inspection cams like an arthroscope you may be able to inspect the oil pump drive chain.
Those bits do look like a chain roller gone bad.
When it was restarted, did it have any oil pressure?
You may have a mess up at the oil pump drive.
If you can get the sump off, I would.
At the fear of being the grim reaper, I would say you have a motor that has been run briefly without oil pressure.

Good Luck !

I have my fingers crossed for you that I am wrong !!
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  #29  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
Have you pulled the valve cover yet?
X2.


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  #30  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:17 AM
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He's already removed the valve cover.
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