Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 07-29-2012, 07:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto View Post
Could they be rollers from the chain? Are they ferrous?

If you can rock the crank back and forth slightly - can't hurt much at this point - does the oil pump chain move?

Sixto
87 300D^2
It is ferrous metal tube, length-wise I am not sure as they are in fragments. The metal tube is very thin and is 1/4" in diameter. There is a circular fragment that I can measure. Any parts inside the engine like a 1/4" diameter metal tube? It cannot be rod or crank shaft parts. It is too fine. I am not familiar with engine internals so I cannot tell whether it is from the engine cut out picture. It is not from the 2 spring loaded parts. I am charging the battery now to spin it again.

Any idea how hard it is to turn the engine with the injector removed. May be my expectation is out of line?

__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-29-2012, 07:03 PM
engatwork's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Soperton, Ga. USA
Posts: 13,647
I am of the opinion that you have had a failure inside the engine. It should be pretty easy to turn with the injectors out.

Have you pulled the cam cover and looked down into the chain galley?
__________________
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-29-2012, 07:50 PM
sixto's Avatar
smoke gets in your eyes
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Eastern TN
Posts: 20,841
I'll check the 603 block in the garage (when I can get to it) but you might be describing a piston squirter. Maybe it choked on something and disintegrated?

I can turn a 603 with a 12" ratchet with one hand with the injectors in place and I'm probably in the 10th percentile in arm strength in this forum or any forum. Injectors out should make it easier. You'll fell a swell of resistance as a piston gets to TDC but it should never feel like you're hitting a solid stop.

Sixto
87 300D^2
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-29-2012, 08:08 PM
engatwork's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Soperton, Ga. USA
Posts: 13,647
I'm pretty sure the squirters are cast pieces. If I had to guess what the bits are they look like worn out chain roller pieces.
__________________
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-29-2012, 08:09 PM
sixto's Avatar
smoke gets in your eyes
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Eastern TN
Posts: 20,841
Nope, the piston squirters are cast aluminum and have more of a rectangular cross-section until it tapers to the business end. There's a harder material insert visible at the business end that's more like 1/8" than 1/4". There's a BB close to the tip of the squirter before it bends up to squirt the underside of the piston.

Might it be something from the underside of the valve cover? Isn't there a built-in oil separator feature? Maybe the spring clip of the oil filler cap?

Sixto
87 300D^2
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-30-2012, 12:50 AM
ROLLGUY's Avatar
ROLLGUY
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,229
When the VP went out on my friends SD, the engine was still hard to turn after replacing all the broken parts. The problem was a piece of metal between the timing chain and one of the gears. I was able to see it from above (head removed), and retrieve it with a magnet. I don't think there is any way a piece of metal can get between the bearings and journals if the crank, so a piece of metal between the timing chain/gear seems likely. If you find the metal that is keeping the engine from turning, and are able to remove it, you may have dodged a bullet. If not, the engine will need to come out (I know you don't want to hear that!)...Rich
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-30-2012, 01:50 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,537
I tried to put the jigsaw pieces together. The shavings are 2 kinds.

a) The ferrous tube is actually a metal band 1/4" diameter and 1/4" long.
b) The other ferrous shaving is also about 1/4" diameter but it is kind of irregular shape.

I will try to gather all the pieces together and take a high resolution picture. I can turn the engine with a 12" ratchet handle bar but it is harder than I thought. May be it is my perception. I removed the VP. There is a metal cover inside. Can I remove the cover and take a look? It is held by 3 bolts.
__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-30-2012, 03:38 AM
sixto's Avatar
smoke gets in your eyes
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Eastern TN
Posts: 20,841
Yes, the cover is basically an assembly tool. On all but the earliest 603s replacement pumps come with instructions to leave out the cover in place of a redesigned gasket.

Can you get a dental mirror into the sump to see the oil pump chain?

I wonder if any of the chain guides have a metal sleeve.

Sixto
87 300D^2
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-30-2012, 04:57 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,534
Put one of the 1/2 tubes on a steel surface and hit it with a hammer. If they flatten out, look for something soft like a ball bearing cage. If they break / shatter , look for rollers from a chain.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-31-2012, 02:52 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,537
Fragments pictures

I used a magnet to scoop up all fragments in the oil pan. Some parts are 2, may be 3 rings, 1/4" diameter and 1/4" wide. The other is of irregular shape. Cannot tell what they are but is circular shape with small diameter.

Any idea where they came from inside the engine. They were small parts.


All fragments, ring on lower portion of picture


Probably 2 ring bands.
__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-31-2012, 03:14 AM
sixto's Avatar
smoke gets in your eyes
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Eastern TN
Posts: 20,841
Looking more and more like bits of a chain.

Sixto
87 300D^2
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-31-2012, 05:49 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 38,610
I have been reading this and keep thinking it might be in the cam area. Have you pulled the valve cover yet?

Also wondering about the small chain which drives the oil pump....is this the 603 motor? I am less familiar with the 603 but on the 617 turbo there is a short chain which drives the oil pump which takes a real beating and is very easily overlooked since you cannot see it.
__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-31-2012, 09:22 AM
layback40's Avatar
Not Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Victoria Australia - down under!!
Posts: 4,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto View Post
Looking more and more like bits of a chain.

Sixto
87 300D^2
X2


ah,

If you had one of those inspection cams like an arthroscope you may be able to inspect the oil pump drive chain.
Those bits do look like a chain roller gone bad.
When it was restarted, did it have any oil pressure?
You may have a mess up at the oil pump drive.
If you can get the sump off, I would.
At the fear of being the grim reaper, I would say you have a motor that has been run briefly without oil pressure.

Good Luck !

I have my fingers crossed for you that I am wrong !!
__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:05 AM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
Have you pulled the valve cover yet?
X2.


__________________
Dave
Boise, ID

Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:17 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 18,350
He's already removed the valve cover.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page