Old Vw bug costs vs Old MB diesel costs - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Mark DiSilvestro · #16 09-19-2012, 06:31 PM

I admit I'm biased - ever since my folks acquired a new leftover '70 VW Squareback for my Mom, with automatic, AC and Bosch's 'experimental' electronic fuel injection.
What may have been an adequate engine design for 28 hp in the late '30s, wasn't up to the 55 or so hp that VW was wringing out of Mom's flat-four in 1970. Routine maintenance was a nightmare and it was possible for a sparkplug to sieze and snap off in the head if it wasn't changed often enough. Almost anything beyond routine maintenance invariably required engine removal.
Even VW dealers had difficulty diagnosing and repairing the fuel injection. The high-pressure fuel hoses in the engine compartmant had no clamps and eventually one blew off, dumping half a tank of gas over the engine. (By some miracle it didn't ignite and I never saw that engine look so clean!)
One morning Mom attempted to go grocery-shopping, when the rocker-shaft studs snapped off in the left cylinder-head. Another tow to the local VW shop!
The dealer-installed AC was truly a hack-job (They actually hacked holes in the firewall for the AC hoses and 'protected' the jagged metal with black dum-dum!) Anyway, the AC only worked about a year and a half in the 13 unlucky years my family owned that car.
By the time my younger brother brother inherited it in 1980, he had to install it's third set of cylinder heads, and 'case-saver' inserts in the aluminum block, as several of the cylinder studs were pulling free! I don't think that car even had 100K on the odo when my brother got rid of it.

To be fair, with the double-jointed axles, the car handled OK for a rear-engine, and we never had any problem with the automatic tranny. Being a loaded 'demo' version, it also came with a great German Blaupunkt Fankfurt AM-FM radio.
But I'd take my worst, rusty 240D over that POS VW any day!

Happy Motoring, Mark

VW1300 · #17 09-19-2012, 06:31 PM

I have a '66 bug and it is a completely different car than my Benzes, they cannot be compared in any meaningful way, they were developed in time and circumstances so far apart, for completely different markets. The old VW was made to be simple to maintain and repair, but not to be particularly roadable or safe.

I enjoy driving mine though - it has loads of charm and is fun to drive in its own way - but I don't drive it as much as I used to for the safety reasons others have mentioned. Yes, you can spent $4000 for a very nice one, but that's true of diesel Benzes too - so what? The slowness is easily dealt with, there are loads of aftermarket parts to make them go faster.

@ Mark - That's a pretty bad experience w/ the squareback - that FI was not VW/Bosch's best design to be sure.

engatwork · #18 09-19-2012, 06:50 PM

I will say they do offer a little more crash protection than the Harley Davidson

.

Mark DiSilvestro · #19 09-19-2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VW1300

I have a '66 bug and it is a completely different car than my Benzes, they cannot be compared in any meaningful way, they were developed in time and circumstances so far apart, for completely different markets. The old VW was made to be simple to maintain and repair, but not to be particularly roadable or safe.

I enjoy driving mine though - it has loads of charm and is fun to drive in its own way - but I don't drive it as much as I used to for the safety reasons others have mentioned. Yes, you can spent $4000 for a very nice one, but that's true of diesel Benzes too - so what? The slowness is easily dealt with, there are loads of aftermarket parts to make them go faster.

@ Mark - That's a pretty bad experience w/ the squareback - that FI was not VW/Bosch's best design to be sure.

I;ve always kinda liked the 66 or older bugs, and do think most any pre-68 Beetle would've been a far more reliable vehicle than Mom's Squareback. (though still a pain for some routine maintenance)
But Mom couldn't drive a stick and really wanted a Squareback (Her first rear-engine car was a '61 Corvair Lakewood station-wagon!)

Happy Motoring, Mark

firstdiesel · #20 09-19-2012, 07:21 PM

I've gotta say that I've owned 2 bugs '69 and '71. As posted earlier, they are good as a toy. I mean, I've got it home with shoe laces and grey tape when the DC gen belt broke. We tricked them out in the 80's with tuned exhaust and dual carbs, cams, valves and heads. It was a real trip! And 4 bolts (17mm) I think maybe 19mm, a throttle and a fuel line and you are carrying an intact engine across the garage with the help of a buddy. Easy! Hell of a lot easier than adjusting an IP or replacing a timing chain (which they didn't have).

As far as safety comparison, can't compare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by engatwork

I will say they do offer a little more crash protection than the Harley Davidson

.

I agree with Engatwork, Harley just didn't provide the coffin!

alamostation · #21 09-19-2012, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gastropodus

; the bus was a disaster in any state that had hills larger than a freeway overpass. Out here in Oregon I felt like I was taking my life in my hands to go out on the freeway and try and keep up with traffic.
Kurt

My most memorable experience in a VW was driving with my parents, younger brother and sister from Detroit to my grandmother's funeral in the Southern Tier of New York in their '71 van when I was 17. We left Detroit at noon Friday figuring we would be at the wake at 8:00 pm. Funeral at 10:00 am Saturday.

The van which was having trouble keeping up with traffic on I-80 (this was when NY-17 was two lane with slow speeds and speed traps everywhere, so the best route now wasn't the best then) ) sucked a valve near Sharon, Pennsylvania. We were running on three cylinders. Top speed about 35 to 40 on flat surfaces, 25 MPH uphill and up to 75 MPH downhill. Western Pennsylvania is nothing but hills.

My father had been up for about 36 hours comforting my mother, he had planned to drive to the Ohio/PA border and hand off to my mother to get us to Elmira. With the certainty of missing her mother's wake, my mother was in no emotional shape to drive.

I drove the 300 miles from Sharon to Elmira in constant fear of being rear-ended despite the flashers being on the whole way, except when the cop from Lock Haven followed me for about 10 miles. We got to Elmira at 6 am. Saturday.

After limping back to Detroit, my Dad found a mechanic who replaced the engine with one from a Corvair. 95 HP! Woo-hoo! After that, I got to like the van since it could carry a lot of freinds, especially with two people riding on the floor with their legs hanging out the sliding door.

vstech · #22 09-19-2012, 09:27 PM

I still have my anodized aluminum pushrod tubes if anybody wants them...

supercub · #23 09-20-2012, 02:51 PM

I noticed the price thing myself. I was originally looking for an old bug and the prices for a decent one were 3,000.00. This is for a car that originally sold for 2,000.00. For a 300D that sold for 28,000.00, the price for a decent one was less money. 3,000.00 would go along way in buying a good 300D and the car is much better.

VW1300 · #24 09-20-2012, 07:14 PM

Yes, it's ironic about the values. It's not as easy to find a nice old bug as a good diesel Benz in Houston. Perhaps it's partly because the Benzes are 20 years newer, and were bought by rich people who usually maintained them for a while. Bugs are all old now, and a lot were not cared for as well.

eatont9999 · #25 09-20-2012, 10:37 PM

From what I have seen, a VW bug is the equivalent of taking a Red Flyer wagon and putting a lawnmower engine in the back of it. Sure it is easy to maintain as far as mechanics goes but then again there isn't much in the department of mechanics to begin with. The Red Flyer has better safety, though. At least you can catch some air before dieing instead of being buried in a pile of rusty steel. Hit something with an older MB and God help whatever the car hits!

t walgamuth · #26 09-21-2012, 05:46 AM

I pulled up at a light next to a 67 beetle the other day. It looked pretty much like the one my dad bought new in 66. It looked to be a pretty sanitary daily driver unrestored.

I have affection for them as I do a model t but have no desire to own one. It was somewhat fun in its day to drive but they were famous for folding under the swing axle and rolling if pushed too hard in a curve.

I actually saw one that had done this one morning while delivering papers when I was about 14. They often would roll without breaking any glass.

i saw one that had simply laid over on its side and slid on its door handle, fenders and rain gutter. It did not look badly injured. door still opened too.

Mark DiSilvestro · #27 09-21-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engatwork

Have you priced out a fully restored 60's VW bus/van lately? And to think your legs are one of your first lines of defense in a head on collision.

IMHO, with rear-engine VWs, the 'airbag' is either you (VW bus), or the gas tank (all other VWs)

In 1969, Ralph Nader published a follow-up to his 1966 book 'Unsafe at Any Speed', titled 'Small On Safety' - a condemnationof the VW. I don't think it had the same effect on the Beetle as his earlier work had on the Corvair, but Volkswagen was already working on a water-cooled, front-drive replacement by then.

Happy Motoring, Mark

zu! · #28 09-21-2012, 03:43 PM

I love bugs! And amongst all the stories of vws being bad in crashes and all, here's one realp-life story:

I was driving my '72 beetle on a country road. As I'm tooling along (we drove on the LEFT hand side of the road, this is significant later on), I noticed a set of lights coming down the steep hill we'd just come down off. It quickly loomed up in my mirror and about 5 seconds before it hit, I realized that this must be an almight big vehicles judging from the size and width of the lights. I was already shaking my sleeping girlfriend with one han whilst gripping the steering with a death-grip on the other. When it hit, it launched that old beetle straight into the air, to hit the vehicle in front, which was a later model Honda I believe. I now had the steering wheel firmly with both hands. It came again, and hit me again. Again, I hit the vehicle in front.

This went on 3 or 4 times (can't remember). On the 4th (or 5th) time, I felt my bug squat at the bottom and came to the instant realization that this thing, whatever it was, was going to simply roll over us. Its amazing how these things can play in your mind, but I realized that the only way to save ourselves was to go onto the opposite lane, where I hoped that oncoming vehicles would be slowed down by then. I was partially right.

I swerved right, head-on with a 5-ton truck, which slammed me into a shallow ditch on the right. Literally, it felt like Dodgem Cars.

Well I gingerly tried my door. Amazingly, it opened with a slight nudge. I rushed over to the passenger side, not wondering why I had no pain anywhere, and opened the door and carried my screaming girlfriend (who hadn't stopped screaming since the first hit) out. She couldn't stand up. We later discovered it was because her legs had just gone "soft".

At the police station, we found out that a total of seven cars had been hit by our car. It was an 18-wheeler, fully loaded with rice that had lost its brakes on the hill. The car that I hit had its rear seat pushed to the drivers seat. The driver was hospitalized. So was the driver of the BMW in front of that. The other cars all had serious damage and had to be towed.

My girlfriend became my wife. That 72 gave up its life for us. The only glass broken in that collision on my bug was the rear window. That's it. We have stil have a 67 in the old country. I also have a 74 bus that's kept in pristine condition. Never felt unsafe in it.

Everyone says bugs and busses are dangerous. I like to think of John Muir's words: If everyone drove like they were strapped to the front of their vehicles, there would be a whole lot less accidents.

I like my Mercedes. But IMO, all the airbags and safey doo-dads in ANY vehicle are worth nothing if one doesn't have the skills and alertness to stay alive. I've never ever had a situation where "it came from nowhere". It always comes from somewhere...you just weren't look when it was coming. And that, my friends, is more dangerous than any bug.

rs899 · #29 09-21-2012, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Everyone says bugs and busses are dangerous. I like to think of John Muir's words: If everyone drove like they were strapped to the front of their vehicles, there would be a whole lot less accidents.

Reminds me of an accident I avoided in my '82 Rabbit pickup less than an hour ago. Asshat was tailgating me as I was doing 55 in a 55 in the rain on a 2 lane highway. We were approaching an intersection, so I got pissed and slowed down to 50 to try to get at least two car lengths of distance between us. He/she got the hint, and slowed down. Not 10 seconds later some blind or inattentive idiot pulled out in front of both of us. If we hadn't had the space that I created I would not be writing this.

I think the bugs were pretty decent cars in their day. Well built for the price. They were never very fuel efficient relative to their size, IMO. I have a small fleet of the first generation VW diesels that I use as daily drivers. They are crude but easy to fix and cheap to run.

alamostation · #30 09-21-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rs899

I think the bugs were pretty decent cars in their day. Well built for the price. They were never very fuel efficient relative to their size, IMO. I have a small fleet of the first generation VW diesels that I use as daily drivers. They are crude but easy to fix and cheap to run.

I will have to agree bugs were decent in their day, which in my opinion was 1958. Years later, my parents had a '58 beetle that got 35 MPG. My dad commuted 55 miles each way for a year. Oil changes were $2.50. Squirt a little grease into the fittings and it was good for another 3000 miles. It was the best possible car at the time.

Air-cooled VW's are crap compared to early VW diesels. I had a 1981 diesel Rabbit that got 42 MPG come hell or high water, except the time that the fuel distributor delivered aviation fuel instead of diesel. It was at 178,000 when my ex wanted and got it in the divorce instead of the 1988 Ford Taurus she *****ed and screamed for us to buy when I wanted to buy a Toyota MR2.

A friend had a VW diesel pickup that went over 700,000 miles without having the head off the engine or the engine out of the truck.

I really thank you posting. After five years of no name for my MR2, I came up with one.