First of all at this point checking timing etc should be put aside. Concentration is required to get the timing pointer for the harmonic balance back wher it should be.

Otherwise. cam marks line up every two revolutions of the crankshaft. Or on the power stroke if you wish. At the top dead centre stroke of the first cylinders piston. Or zero on the harmonic balancer once the indicator pointer is accuratly located again in your case.

If the chain is stretched a little the cam marks will be slightly off.Perhaps the width of the indicator marks. You must turn the engine in it's normal rotation to get rid of any potential chain slop that could occur. If turning the engine backwards for this check it is not the normal operational mode. Under power that chain is stretched very tight on the traction side.

By the time this is over we may have a love hate relationship going. If the timing is off and I still suspect it is. If it were my car That timing chain would get a link by link inspection.

The reason is there is a tang just below the bottom of the chain on the bottom sprocket to prevent it getting out of time with a loose chain. If it jammed up and jumped time down there quite some forces may have been involved. Hence the chain inspection.

First things first things though. Pointer recalibration for top dead centre and rechecking the timing after. Chain inspection can be accomplished at the same time the cam and injection pump timing checks are underway.

The proof it should be done is if it is found that both the cam and injection pump timing are off a crank tooth. That is going to equate to the cam and injection pump being off two teeth each to correct. It cannot be corrrected on the very bottom sprocket in my opinion. Depends still on what the harmonic balancer readings etc are going to be though.

Just remember how lucky you are to have the engine with the hydralic lifters as you go along. On the 617 last series engines I suspect valve train damage would have resulted if the cam where two teeth off.

You have already eliminated the possibility of the cam or injection pump being on the wrong stroke. This was not really a possibility anyways. Have a good weekend and I hope it warms up for you. Hard to think and function while freezing your ass off working on a car.

Minus twenty C is about minus twenty F for our american members. At a few temperatures C and F readings are simular. Not many places on the temperature scale are they simualr though.

i'm back from the igloo / garage with more updates .... i went and did the TDC test , hopefully someone can help me figure this out ...i'm baffled, i'm not quite sure how to explain it properly the issue i'm facing so pls humor me i took the # 1 injector out and found TDC using barry123 liquid which works pretty cool actually and accurately imo ) and then matched the pointer on the crank to TDC / 0 deg and btw the mark on the cam shaft gear are dead on ... amazingly enuf and finally got a correct reading of between 20 & 30 or so .... WHEN the tang on the IP port is approx in the middle ....

sorry to be soooooo vague but i cant help it ..... and now dont know what to make of it .... there is so much " play " when taking the readings on the crank after trying to have the tang in the center of the port what i mean by " play " ( for lack of a better word ) is this ...

1st i tried to set tang in middle of port / spyhole .... but that shows a reading on crank of approx 30 plus degrees ATDC , so just for fun i try to move the crank back to where it'supposed to be ( 15 deg ) to see where the tang will appear "now " and becuz of apparent slack in the " system " chain or ip or ???? it doesnt take much movement on the crank to get back to where it's supposed to be ( 15 AFTDC ) ( in otherwords tooooo the tang barley moved compared to 15 or so degree move on crank persay ... and the tang in the ip had to the outer edge of the port .....

so what is the real reading ... i dont know ... and if that reading is correct ( since everything else seems to be lined fine ) how could the ip be out 15 or more degrees .... hmmmmmm what to do now ???


ps ... just a thought imo there seems to be too much room for " play " interpretation in the numbers ..... it obviously needs the timing reset ... but how much and how to do it ???

There is always inherent slop in the chain system to pick up when trying to back the engine up. So your two differant tang readings occuring in my opinion are normal. You are 15 degrees later than you should be on the injection pump if you saw thirty atdc on the balancer when rotating the engine in the right direction so it should be corrected. To double check this you just continue to roll the engine over two more times. Reversing the engine rotation again is counter productive.

Since the important thing here is to get the car fixed. Members should know we talked on the phone.

The poster used the vertical oil containment tube method I mentioned for finding top dead centre. Coming at tdc from both directions just gave him about an eighth of an inch differance on the balancer So I assume he split the differance and set the pointer there.

The injector pump timing may not have jumped in my opinion now I tend to believe. This based on him telling me the car had run smooth and quiet but gutless before this problem occured. It is my suspicion that the injection pump may have been mistimed since he aquired the car. Or it may be a just possibility is a better thought,

So my opinion and I would like to see others with much more experience than myself involved in this as the injection pump wil have to be retimed but may or may not fix his issues.

It is just a hard go for me to understand if and how that pump went out of time. The prior gutless performance could have just been the typical blocked up alda signal and the pump chain really has jumped somehow is still on the table though I guess.

Again I would like to see a lot of participation because my suspicion is this one could become interesting.

All I know is the injection pump appears to be very late in the cycle. Enough to cause all his symptoms goes beyod my limited knowledge. I never owned or worked on a 603 engine. But guess they are a little more sensitive than my older diesel boat anchors.

I think the poster was suprised when telling him the 603 engined cars can be pretty peppy for an old diesel. Personally I want to see him experience that factor as well.

Once this guy gets motavated it seems he follows through. I cannot see his mechanical advance unit being involved or the degrees the engine is out would indicate lower ATDC numbers not higher if anything. Very good and more than adaquate descriptions of retiming the injection pump are also in the archives. These descriptions are for people that have never retimed a 603 injection pump before and are step by step.

My limited amount of knowledge may be topping out about now. Falling back a little to the chain (no pun intended) of events does indicate it has to be almost something in the general area inpacted where he was working though at the same time. So I guess we wil have to wait to see what the retimed injection pump produces first.

I have suggested he either fabricate a locking blade for the injection pump tang or get into the archives to find a method someone else has used to make one as there is not a factory type one close to his location. I did not mention that we have a tool rental section though as well and that was neglectful.

If I am missing something or even if not some comments on what other members think might help.

after talking ot barry on the phone ... again , sooooooooo helpful, i appreciate ibecuz some things are better able to explain on phone .... anyway, i gave it some thought about " way to get proper readings " YES ... it makes sense to me NOW doooooooooh on why NOT to reverse the direction ... will give false readings becuz of slack in the chain ... why didnt i think of that ... i'll try again today ...and btw while doing my research HERE i came across a good description on how to adjust IP WITHOUT unbolting it ... kinda novel ( if it works )

For the IP, cut up a soda can for a strip of aluminum to slide between the sprocket and chain. Turn the IP to the desired position and reset the chain. Obviously done in separate steps since the cam is set at TDC and the IP is set at 15*ATDC.


here is link 87 TDT black smoke all the time

Not a bad ideal. Check first exactly how much each tooth of movement represents in degrees. That information is in the archives. It has to be fairly close to fifteen degrees so the limited range of on engine injection pump adjustment can meet it.

wow, 15 degrees late... that's less than a tooth if my math is correct... I think you may need to disconnect the IP and rotate it with the cam and crank lined up at the correct marks.

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

thanks for the advice guys ... but unfortunately things when from bad to worse when i tried to do that .... i couldnt get enuf slack on the chain to do that .... almost but not quite enuf .... I "even " tried by unbolting the camshaft gear to give the chain some slack ( and in the process noticed the end of the camshaft had a crack in it where the pin from the cam gear slides in ... soooooooooo it's either jb weld it back together ..... ( but am wondering if i should take that risk or not ... will it be strong enuf to hold ) or have to buy a new one ...

and when i went to try and remove the bolt from the IP it snapped ooooooh great .....

soooooooooo i removed the intake manifold so it's easier to get at the pump.... " now " i can replace those old fuel lines i couldnt get @ b4 .....


now if i can only remember how this all goes back together later ......

GO DOWNLOAD THE FSM FROM THE LINK ABOVE BEFORE YOU DESTROY YOUR MOTOR!!!!!

it's got pictures and assembly/disassembly procedures...

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

the crack will NEVER be ok with jbweld... you will need a new cam. parts yard snooping is in your future!

this totally explains the extra 15degrees! you have parts not aligned where they are supposed to be.
STOP.
get the FSM.
Get a NEW timing chain. (trust me, it's ruined)
Get a new/used cam.
replace the IP retention bolt, and get everything back together.
wouldn't hurt to replace the tensioner, and the chain guides if there is wear in them.

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

your being a little overly dramatic dont yah think

it just seems to be the result(s) of cascading effects i'm seeing from when the oil chain broke, instead of " just " falling off it managed to wrap itself around/jam the timing chain and stop the motor dead ... ( how i know this from when i took the timing chain cover off ) so possibly all that momentum something had to give imho ....

i was following the procedures as best i can .... for some reason the bolt snapped on the front of the pump broke ... rusty or ???

and conversely i didnt see the crack in the gear until i took it off ..... imo it's a good thing i noticed it now .... imagine if it had happened on the road while driving ... THAT would have destroyed the motor when it let go .....


like they say ...in for a penny .. . in for a pound .... might as wwell bite the bullet and fix it right i always say..... frustrating as hell tho ........

ps.... could u help me out here and let me know what parts i'm gonna need to replace generally to order ..... might as well do it right..... i know the basics obv..... timing chain, camshaft, what else .. guides ... so i'm not missing out .... thks i just HATE HATE ( for obvious reasons ) to spend all this time & $$$$$ on a motor that may be crap ... how do i know .....
it did run very nicely and smooth b4 this

If the cam is rotated 90 degrees from correct timing, as it looks in your pics, you could have bent some valves.

If it were me, I wouldnt buy anything more until I knew what I was dealing with. So, I would re-pin the gear to the cam as good as your able and put everything back in time, and turn the engine through two full turns while doing a cylinder leak down test on all cylinders. When the engine is in correct time, and when a cylinders valves are both in the upward and equally offset position, that cylinders piston should be close to TDC and both valves are closed. You dont need a leakdown tester per se, an air supply you can attach to the compression test fitting will suffice. But you will need to hold the crank from rotating with a breaker bar. What your looking for is air leakage, or the lack of. If you hear air in the intake, the intake valve is leaking. If you hear air in the tail pipe, the exhaust vale is leaking. If you hear a very slight amount in the crankcase, thats normal. So is having a lot of pressure on the breaker bar trying to turn the crank.

You should really have a factory service manual or CD, and have a good basic understanding of what your doing, if you dont want to screw anything up.

Netpro,

1.If the I.P.bolt that you broke,is the one in the center of the Timing Device...
Well,that sucker is REVERSE threaded... A.K.A. "Righty Loosey ,Lefty Tighty".
2.No one here is over reacting.
3.Vstech and Ozarkdude are completely correct,YOU NEED the FSM, Weeks ago.
Just as Mercedes "Hard Parts" and engineering are NOT intuitive...
You need time to digest and comprehend the "Setups" from Stuttgart.
4. The Mercedes FSM was originally written in Swahili and translated into
Japanese by "non-Japanese literate" Chinese indentured workers,who
then finally subcontracted a Navajo code writer to put it into Francais
which a Cockney then printed into Hungarian for delivery to the printer
who only reads and speaks Urdu.
5.You are like the Air Stewardess with 25 hrs on her IFR certificate,Suddenly
confronted with a "No RF Comms" Singlehanded attempt @ landing a 737-500.
"Thars S**T going down,Youse Gots No Ideas about."

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__________________
'84 300SD sold
124.128

thanks for the info .... but i finally got all my new parts you listed ( and found the time to do it ) in fact i had to buy all new cam followers ... 4 had no spring to them ..... but cant figure out how the heck to get the old timing chain guide out .... there seems to be a rod/bolt that goes thru it @ the top that the idle tensioner " hangs " on ... how do i get it out .... i dont want to break it hehe ....
yes that's right new timing chain, sprocket , guides , camshaft gear etc....

The FSM will explain it all, with pictures. I know its an added expense you dont want to pay, but that information would have already have paid for itself had you had it at the beginning. I learned to by manuals when I owned an MGB at 17 years old. I have a couple shelfs full now. Well worth the cost IMHO.