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  #46  
Old 11-29-2012, 03:22 PM
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Lift Pump

Its getting colder and colder here, so I'm going to clear out room in my garage. Ill push the car in and take off the lift pump and update everyone ASAP. Thanks again for all the help and support!
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  #47  
Old 12-17-2012, 05:56 PM
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Help! (I hope this thread and Benz aren't dead yet)

Okay, so I moved my car into the garage finally and removed the hood to make working on it easier. My brother and I installed a new lift pump and hand primer pump, so now I am pretty sure that isn't the problem. When I pump the hand pump I can hear fuel moving, but still, the car won't start. I cracked all the hard lines that end at the injectors and nothing comes out. I even totally removed the hard lines, but nothing comes out of the IP. Is it time for me to say my IP is shot? What else could it be. Keep in mind that my current set up runs off a small clean diesel supply which goes directly into the replaced lift pump which then goes into the brand new spin on filter and then into the IP. All I can think is that there is an issue in the IP. Thanks again.
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  #48  
Old 12-17-2012, 06:58 PM
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Close off the return line from the injection pump just in case the relief valve is stuck open.
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  #49  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:05 PM
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if you haven't verified your glow plug system yet and the glow plug fuses...check them again....

I just made a certified dumbass out of myself on my "bogus" 603 IP failure trouble shooting...

I guess it's true, IPs just don't fail...it's always something else...
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1987 300TDT
1981 VW MKI Caddy 1.6 diesel, waiting on engine swap
1983 D-50 Power Ram 4x4 "Mitsubishi" 2.3 turbo diesel
assorted gas powered crap and motorcycles

RIP: 1984 300TDT, 1982 300TDT, 1984 190D 2.2, 1992 300D 2.5, 1987 300TDT, 1982 Maxima LD28, 1983 Maxima LD28, Isuzu C223 P'ups X3, 1983 Holiday Rambler 6.2 Banks turbo diesel, 1984 Winnebago LeSharo 2.1 TD, 1985 Allegro 6.5
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  #50  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odie View Post
if you haven't verified your glow plug system yet and the glow plug fuses...check them again....

I just made a certified [expletive] out of myself on my "bogus" 603 IP failure trouble shooting...

I guess it's true, IPs just don't fail...it's always something else...
Actually, the car has previously stalled out when running and only restarted once after that -- and then it shut down promptly. Also, he is not getting any fuel to the injectors, which would not be affected by the glow plugs.
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"Senior Luna, your sense of humor is still loco... but we love it, anyway." -rickymay ____ "Your sense of humor is still loco... " -MBeige ____ "Señor Luna, your sense of humor is quite järjetön" -Delibes

1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
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  #51  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:40 PM
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i'm just saying that i swore on my mamma's grave(she is decesed) that I had no fuel flow to the injectors either and found out after a few weeks I did...good fuel flow...GP fuse blown...

i only hope to learn from my mistakes...
__________________
1987 300TDT
1981 VW MKI Caddy 1.6 diesel, waiting on engine swap
1983 D-50 Power Ram 4x4 "Mitsubishi" 2.3 turbo diesel
assorted gas powered crap and motorcycles

RIP: 1984 300TDT, 1982 300TDT, 1984 190D 2.2, 1992 300D 2.5, 1987 300TDT, 1982 Maxima LD28, 1983 Maxima LD28, Isuzu C223 P'ups X3, 1983 Holiday Rambler 6.2 Banks turbo diesel, 1984 Winnebago LeSharo 2.1 TD, 1985 Allegro 6.5
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  #52  
Old 12-17-2012, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odie View Post
if you haven't verified your glow plug system yet and the glow plug fuses...check them again....

I just made a certified dumbass out of myself on my "bogus" 603 IP failure trouble shooting...

I guess it's true, IPs just don't fail...it's always something else...
I think it is Human Nature to blame the thing We understand the least.
You see the same thing with Glow Plug issues; the Glow Plug Relay is the first thing People who have not delt with them before suspect.
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  #53  
Old 12-17-2012, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odie View Post
i'm just saying that i swore on my mamma's grave(she is decesed) that I had no fuel flow to the injectors either and found out after a few weeks I did...good fuel flow...GP fuse blown...

i only hope to learn from my mistakes...
OK, now I'm curious. Why did you have no flow?
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"Senior Luna, your sense of humor is still loco... but we love it, anyway." -rickymay ____ "Your sense of humor is still loco... " -MBeige ____ "Señor Luna, your sense of humor is quite järjetön" -Delibes

1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
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  #54  
Old 12-17-2012, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McCedesBenz View Post
Okay, so I moved my car into the garage finally and removed the hood to make working on it easier. My brother and I installed a new lift pump and hand primer pump, so now I am pretty sure that isn't the problem. When I pump the hand pump I can hear fuel moving, but still, the car won't start. I cracked all the hard lines that end at the injectors and nothing comes out. I even totally removed the hard lines, but nothing comes out of the IP. Is it time for me to say my IP is shot? What else could it be. Keep in mind that my current set up runs off a small clean diesel supply which goes directly into the replaced lift pump which then goes into the brand new spin on filter and then into the IP. All I can think is that there is an issue in the IP. Thanks again.
Was Fuel coming out of the Return Line when you used the Hand Primer?

Was Fuel coming out of the Return Line when you Cranked the Engine?

In one of the Posts were you showed the removed Fuel Pressure Relief/Over Flow Valve it looked like an MW type Fuel Injection Pump.

Only do this to the Number One Delivery Valve.
If you can use a regular Deep Socket on the Delivery Valve Holders (that is an MW type Pump) you can remove the delivery Valve Holder Spring and the Delivery Valve and Crush Washer without causing any issues.
Just don't remove the center Valve from the Delivery Valve.
Don't lose any parts.

The object is to get a view of the Element Plunger to see if it is actually moving up and down. If the Plunger is moving up and down there is only 2 things that can keep it from pumping Fuel.
1- if the Feed Hole (See the Pic of the Fuel Feed Hole, However, don't pull this element out to see it on your Pump as it will mess up the Fuel Adjustment.)
2- If the Fuel Rack is stucK. You can get at the Rack by removing the Vacuum Shutoff Valve from the Fuel Injection Pump. However, if you move the Rack Manually do so without the Fuel Injection hard lines connected to the Injectors.
If you do the above without the Hard Lines on at all keep your Face away so you don't get spurted with Fuel and don't ever block the hole the Fuel comes out of on the Delivery Valve with your Finger.
Attached Thumbnails
IP Issue? (please help)-mw-pump-element-1-feed-hole.jpg  
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Last edited by Diesel911; 12-17-2012 at 10:50 PM.
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  #55  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:07 AM
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More...

To Everyone: Thanks for picking up right where we left off. I really hope this can get somewhere.
To Diesel911: Unfortunately, I can't answer your questions with 100% confidence in my memory. I KNOW for a fact when I pumped the hand primer fuel came out of the return line. When cranking, I am ALMOST sure fuel came out of the return line, but I was distracted by my hopes that I would see signs of life. I will double check this.

I do certainly have an MW type Fuel Injector Pump. I would like to do what you said, but I want to be absolutely sure I am understanding you correctly. I am very nervous about tinkering with any part of the IP (as I have hear a few horror stories). I want to make sure I understand exactly what you mean. I tried to look it up, but if you could describe what you mean by "Delivery Valve", "Delivery Valve Holder", "Delivery Valve Holder Spring", and "Center Valve" it would really help. I don't mean to be a pain, but I want to make sure I do the right thing. In short, is the "Number One Delivery Valve" the object I circled in green on the attached picture? I had actually tried to take this off based on some earlier advise, but got scared when I tried with *some* force and it didn't seem to budge. If this is in fact what I want to take off please let me know. I also put red X marks over the bolts I am under the impression I don't want to touch. I did try to research the meaning of everything and will continue to do so, but if you can confirm that I want to take off the green circled thing (which I believe is the Number One Delivery Valve) that would be great. Also, Number One does refer to the front most one right (the one I circled)?


I'm sorry that I don't know the names of everything, I will try to work at it, but while I am ignorant, please try to help me learn. Any information on what these parts are and what I want to touch and shouldn't touch would be great. I won't try to hide that I am afraid to touch anything near the IP, but if I am confident what I will do won't make more problems, I'll go in.
Attached Thumbnails
IP Issue? (please help)-do-i-have-right.jpg  
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  #56  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:13 AM
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How to block it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
Close off the return line from the injection pump just in case the relief valve is stuck open.
To barry12345: I was actually thinking about this. How would I go about blocking it? Can I just put a bolt that size in there? Would my finger work here?

To Diesel911: This brings me to another (slightly related) question, just out of curiosity, why did you say this? "don't ever block the hole the Fuel comes out of on the Delivery Valve with your Finger."
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  #57  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McCedesBenz View Post
To barry12345: I was actually thinking about this. How would I go about blocking it? Can I just put a bolt that size in there? Would my finger work here?

To Diesel911: This brings me to another (slightly related) question, just out of curiosity, why did you say this? "don't ever block the hole the Fuel comes out of on the Delivery Valve with your Finger."
The Elements are what create the High Pressure for the Fuel Injection. Blocking the Hole of the Delivery Valve or the end of the Fuel Injection Hard lines gives the Fuel an opportunity to go through your Finger.

And, if the possible physical injury is not bad enough the Toxic Diesel Fuel chemically ruins your tissue and your circulation wants move it on down the line where it does more damage.

As the other member said if you can get a Vice Grips and squeeze close the Fuel Retrun/Cigar Hose that will allow the Fuel Supply pressure inside of the Fuel Injection Pump Housing to rise as high as your Fuel Supply/Lift Pump can provide. Something like 18 psi.
If that works and you get Fuel it is likely your Fuel Pressure Relief/Over Flow valve is not holding enough pressure.
In order for the above to work you have to get on the Hand Primer amd make sure all of the Air is out of the IP Housing before you clamp off the Fuel Return Hose.
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  #58  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
The Elements are what create the High Pressure for the Fuel Injection. Blocking the Hole of the Delivery Valve or the end of the Fuel Injection Hard lines gives the Fuel an opportunity to go through your Finger.
This is a long standing fallacy that needs to be finally put to bed.

The element only creates high pressure if it delivers fuel against a closed system. The system is closed on the discharge side if the hard line is connected to the injector. If you placed your finger over the injector tip, you'll get fuel discharged at about 2000 psi and your concern would be valid.

At the IP, with the hardline removed, the miniscule dribble of fuel that is discharged at about 2 psi (the limit of the strength of your finger) isn't going to do a damn thing to your finger.
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  #59  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:38 AM
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Oh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
The Elements are what create the High Pressure for the Fuel Injection. Blocking the Hole of the Delivery Valve or the end of the Fuel Injection Hard lines gives the Fuel an opportunity to go through your Finger.

And, if the possible physical injury is not bad enough the Toxic Diesel Fuel chemically ruins your tissue and your circulation wants move it on down the line where it does more damage.

As the other member said if you can get a Vice Grips and squeeze close the Fuel Retrun/Cigar Hose that will allow the Fuel Supply pressure inside of the Fuel Injection Pump Housing to rise as high as your Fuel Supply/Lift Pump can provide. Something like 18 psi.
If that works and you get Fuel it is likely your Fuel Pressure Relief/Over Flow valve is not holding enough pressure.
In order for the above to work you have to get on the Hand Primer amd make sure all of the Air is out of the IP Housing before you clamp off the Fuel Return Hose.
Oh! Okay, I do recall reading this somewhere. I'll give that a shot. Could you please let me know if what I wrote in post #55 looks right?
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  #60  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
This is a long standing fallacy that needs to be finally put to bed.

The element only creates high pressure if it delivers fuel against a closed system. The system is closed on the discharge side if the hard line is connected to the injector. If you placed your finger over the injector tip, you'll get fuel discharged at about 2000 psi and your concern would be valid.

At the IP, with the hardline removed, the miniscule dribble of fuel that is discharged at about 2 psi (the limit of the strength of your finger) isn't going to do a damn thing to your finger.
I hope that people will pick what is the most safe thing to do.
Try this; put your Bathroom scale at about the level of the Fuel Injection Pump and put your Thumb on the middle of the Scale and lean down on it with your Body Weight and see how many pounds of pressure you come up with.

I know whe I was Younger I could easily block off a Garden Hose with 60 psi of pressure with my Thumb while My hand was holding the Hose.

I am pretty sure if I put My Thumb or Finger over one if the Delivery Valve Holders and lean on it I could hold back more than 60 psi.

I have no idea how much pressure is needed to Inject somthing into your body but I don't want to find out.

As an example an Air Compressor will typically put out 100-125 psi. Some Air blowing jobs require a Need type nozzle on the End to cean small passages.
If the Needle does not have the safety side vents and you press one of those skinny needles against firmly against your Skin and give yourself a blast you have a good chance of shooting some Air into yourself and that is a realativly low pressure.

I will leave it up to you to experiment.
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