Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-17-2012, 11:53 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 28
IP Issue? (please help)

Hi all, I am a new member here. I have been using peachparts as a resource for a while, but I am totally stuck. So, I'll get straight to the problem (in short), and if you are curious, I'll put all the gory details after it

The Problem (semi-short): 1985 300TD Wagon will not start. After reading about a lot of problems here, I am pretty sure I have isolated the issue to the IP. I would like more knowledgeable members to either confirm my diagnosis and tell me where I should go from here, or explain to me what I am missing. In short, I have hooked up a small diesel fuel supple to right before the hand primer pump. I have also recently replaced the line from the spin on fuel filter to the IP with a clear line to help in diagnosing. I have removed the five hard lines which run from the IP to the injectors. After priming with the hand primer, I cranked the engine for 10 seconds and nothing came out of the IP. I tried priming again, cranked, and repeated for a total of 3 or 4 times. Nothing came out of the IP. I think this is an indication my IP has an issue. Am I right? How do I go about fixing this?

The Problem (all the gory details/long): Here are some more details that may be relevant about the car. My brother and I recently got this 1985 300TD wagon. He has had a 1982 we have worked on a lot (and spent a lot of time in). I am OK at working on cars, and I love it, but I do lack some knowledge (but I am trying to learn). The 1985 that is having problems was purchased a few months ago. At the time, it was not running. It has a dual tank system for running WVO. The car has 472,xxx miles on it, and we got it as a project for a good price. After having it for a few days, we hooked up a good diesel supply (in the way I described) and were able to get it to run off of this. It was rough to start, but once we got it running, it ran fine. On subsequent starts, it started normally. We then began the process of cleaning all the lines and the tank for the smaller of the 2 tanks which is intended to be run with diesel. We replaced the inline filter (for that tank) and the spin on filter. We primed the lines and it ran fine on this tank (although it did die two or three times early on, but I assumed it might just be air in the lines or something). In short time, the car was running great on the small tank. Then, we began cleaning the second tank and its lines. After this, the car was able to run on either tank successfully. One day, while running on the larger tank, the car died. I think I had run this tank dry (apparently that gauge is broken). I took off the spin off filter and the diesel in it seemed a little odd (possibly minimal water contamination or something), so I dumped it and refilled it. I switched over to the smaller tank and was able to get it running again with some coaxing. After all this, it ran great on this smaller tank. I assumed that the car's death was due to the large tank running out. It was running so well on the small tank that I went ahead and insured and registered the car (a little over a week ago). When I took the car on its maiden street voyage (I have been driving it only on my property up until this point) it died about .5 miles from my house. I pulled over and hooked up a clean diesel source right before the hand primer pump. I primed and was able to get the car running. I got home it struggled and died. I then primed again and it started up. I hooked everything up to the small tank again it it seemed fine. I tried to drive it up my street and it died. I rolled it onto my property and cracked one of the lines at the injectors and cranked. Nothing came out. I loosened it more. Nothing came out. I took it totally off on the injector side. Nothing came out. This is when I got worried. I thought the IP might be clogged. So I blew some compressed air into the IP. I tried cranking again. Still nothing. So then, I made the set up I described above (with the clear line and all 5 hard lines removed). I just tested this today, and nothing comes out of any of them at all.

Bottom Line: Is my IP busted? Where do I go from here? Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

More about me, the car, the whole situation: I love these old MBs, but I know I don't know everything. I try to research everything online before posting (hence this is my first post). Sorry if this is really wrong but I am very stumped and a bit frustrated, but any ideas will be very appreciated. If anyone needs any more information, I tried to be thorough, but please let me know. Help me help you help me by telling me if I am missing key details. The car was run quite a bit on WVO by previous owners, but I have not used any in it ever. I have heard IP problems are hard to fix sometimes and are often misdiagnosed, so I want knowledgeable people's opinions on how I should proceed. I got the car fairly cheap, but I don't know a whole lot about if it, so I don't want to spend too much money on it unless people think it will be reliable. If I posted in the wrong place or something, please let me know, I'm new!

Much much thanks,
Kevin
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-17-2012, 05:52 PM
shadetree77's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 430
could just be a gummed up IP from the WVO. i've heard people using Acetone to soak the inside of the IP and it will clean it pretty good (Acetone is very aggressive though , so be aware of that)
__________________
1983 300SD (daily driver)
1991 420SEL (work in progress)
1979 300SD (future replacement for 83 SD)

RIP:
1983 300SD (totalled)
1986 420SEL
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-17-2012, 08:06 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 28
Thanks for the quick response...

Thanks for your help. For clarity, do you think it is possible that WVO gummed it up, even though I have been running it on only diesel for a few months? Also, how do you recommend I clean it with acetone (I don't want to take it apart, do I)?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-17-2012, 08:18 PM
Doktor Bert's Avatar
Das Sturm Uberdoktor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Palm Springs, CA.
Posts: 2,669
Interesting problem....

I cannot say that I have EVER seen a Bosch diesel pump fail like this. I HAVE seen the mechanical pump on a Porsche 917 flat-12 act like this (after 20 years of sitting) and found the rack was gummed in the idle position and wasn't pumping fuel.

What about removing the delivery valves, as you do for setting the IP{ timing on #1 cylinder and see what's lurking in there????
__________________
Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-17-2012, 09:19 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: coquitlam bc canada
Posts: 427
dumb question

Is the lift pump ok?? I too have never seen an IP get plugged. I have seen them blamed for lots of things but no start is usually plugged filters, air in the lines , bad lift pump , no glow plugs or in rare cases no compression( which could be the case if you run on WVO without lots of heat and get stuck rings). If you can get it to start do a diesel purge from a bottle. Cheers
__________________
It's always something simple
91 300D 603.960 (from japan) 194K
92 Toyota Diesel Landcruiser HDJ81-t 116K
02 Golf TDI new head courtesy of PO
87 300D
97 BMW 525 TDS Wagon 5spd
bunch of Onan and other diesel generators
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-17-2012, 09:33 PM
Doktor Bert's Avatar
Das Sturm Uberdoktor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Palm Springs, CA.
Posts: 2,669
X2...
__________________
Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-17-2012, 09:34 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 28
Thanks!

I really really appreciate everyone's help so far. I don't know if this is a naive questions, but could this somehow be a vacuum and/or shut off valve issue?

In response to Doktor Bert, I just want to make absolutely sure I am taking off the right thing before I do it, as I have heard taking off the wrong thing on the IP can be a HUGE issure. I have attached a picture with some things circled. The nut circled in red, I think is a big mistake to take off. The circle in green is where the hard line meets the delivery valve (I believe). I took off the hard line already. It is okay to take off the delivery valve (the thing beneath the hard line in the green circle, right?

In response to bigblockchev, the lift pump (that is the hand powered pump right?) seems okay. If I pump it, it does fine, but if I pump it a ton, it will leak a little. Is that okay? The car was running a few days ago and the lift pump did that then too, so I'd imagine it is okay. I don't think the filters are the issue. They all are pretty new, and I took off the spin off one and dumped it and refilled it with diesel (just in case). Also, right now my set up is bypassing the primary filter (as people commnonly do for a diesel purge). Right now, I am not concerned with glow plugs or compression, but if I resolve this, those obviously will be a consideration, but right now what I am concerned with is this:

I have a purge-like setup and I have removed the hard lines from the injector pump. When I crank, nothing comes out at all from the IP, even though I can see fuel getting to the IP through a clear line I installed. basically, no fuel is being pushed through the IP.

Much thanks everyone, I really want this Benz to live on. Thank you so much!
Attached Thumbnails
IP Issue? (please help)-ipquestion.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:04 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 27,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by McCedesBenz View Post
I really really appreciate everyone's help so far. I don't know if this is a naive questions, but could this somehow be a vacuum and/or shut off valve issue?

In response to Doktor Bert, I just want to make absolutely sure I am taking off the right thing before I do it, as I have heard taking off the wrong thing on the IP can be a HUGE issure. I have attached a picture with some things circled. The nut circled in red, I think is a big mistake to take off. The circle in green is where the hard line meets the delivery valve (I believe). I took off the hard line already. It is okay to take off the delivery valve (the thing beneath the hard line in the green circle, right?

In response to bigblockchev, the lift pump (that is the hand powered pump right?) seems okay. If I pump it, it does fine, but if I pump it a ton, it will leak a little. Is that okay? The car was running a few days ago and the lift pump did that then too, so I'd imagine it is okay. I don't think the filters are the issue. They all are pretty new, and I took off the spin off one and dumped it and refilled it with diesel (just in case). Also, right now my set up is bypassing the primary filter (as people commnonly do for a diesel purge). Right now, I am not concerned with glow plugs or compression, but if I resolve this, those obviously will be a consideration, but right now what I am concerned with is this:

I have a purge-like setup and I have removed the hard lines from the injector pump. When I crank, nothing comes out at all from the IP, even though I can see fuel getting to the IP through a clear line I installed. basically, no fuel is being pushed through the IP.

Much thanks everyone, I really want this Benz to live on. Thank you so much!
The Hand Primer screws into the Fuel Supply/Lift Pump.
The Fuel Supply/Lift Pump runs off of the Camshaft that is inside of the Fuel Injection Pump.
Some pics of it taken apart:
Lift Pump Rebuild...

When you apply the Shutoff it is connected to the Vacuum and shuts off. After the Car sits the Vacuum bleeds off and your Car is ready to start again.
If for some reason you have a high crankcase pressure and or the Vent Hole in the Valve Cover is blocked pressure builds up and pushes the Vacuum Shutoff in the shutoff direction.

While it does not normally happen to all of the Plungers in the Elements I have seen it happen where there is gunk in the IP that the Plunger goes up and the Spring fails to return it down.
Water in the Fuel and the Pump sitting un-used is most often the reason for that.

It should be easy to see if the Fuel supply Lift pump is doing something. Just loosen the end of the Cigar Hose (Fuel Return Hose) and crank the Engine. If Fuel is coming out the Lift Pump is doing something.
Anoter issue could be the Fuel Pressure Relief/Overflow Valve. It has a spring loaded Ball Bearing that holds a certain amounat of pressure inside of the Fuel Injection Pump Housing. If that is not holding pressure the Elements will not get Fuel.

I don't know if I would use Acetone but if you want to get a chemical in the Fuel Injection Pump Housing simply pump it in with the Hand Primer.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

Last edited by Diesel911; 11-17-2012 at 10:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:19 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: coquitlam bc canada
Posts: 427
Check that the shutoff valve is not stuck partway down

Maybe a bent arm or shaft is not letting the lever rise up all the way, Pull up on the stop lever to see if it is stuck. If you havent taken it apart or hit it with something to bend it then this seems unlikley. But I have actually done this myself in a ham handed moment. Also disconnect the vacuum line to the stop valve in case it is not venting. This too seems improbable!!
__________________
It's always something simple
91 300D 603.960 (from japan) 194K
92 Toyota Diesel Landcruiser HDJ81-t 116K
02 Golf TDI new head courtesy of PO
87 300D
97 BMW 525 TDS Wagon 5spd
bunch of Onan and other diesel generators
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:21 PM
theo3000's Avatar
Leadfoot
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Apple Valley CA
Posts: 300
I had similar symptoms when the bolt on my timing device broke. You may want to take off the fuel pump and confirm that the cam in the IP is turning.

Here's a long thread about my problem. Page two is where I started to figure out what was going on.

Broke Injection pump Timing Device BOLT!!!
__________________
1985 300D California
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:21 PM
Doktor Bert's Avatar
Das Sturm Uberdoktor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Palm Springs, CA.
Posts: 2,669
Makes me wonder, as well, if his stop is stuck in the shut-off position????
__________________
Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:22 PM
Doktor Bert's Avatar
Das Sturm Uberdoktor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Palm Springs, CA.
Posts: 2,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by McCedesBenz View Post
In response to Doktor Bert, I just want to make absolutely sure I am taking off the right thing before I do it, as I have heard taking off the wrong thing on the IP can be a HUGE issure. I have attached a picture with some things circled. The nut circled in red, I think is a big mistake to take off. The circle in green is where the hard line meets the delivery valve (I believe). I took off the hard line already. It is okay to take off the delivery valve (the thing beneath the hard line in the green circle, right?

Much thanks everyone, I really want this Benz to live on. Thank you so much!

yep, as long as you do not disturb the flange, that is held in place by the (2) nuts, you will be fine...
__________________
Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 28
Tomorrow....

It is dark (and cold) here right now. As my car is on my property away from heat and light, I will save tinkering for tomorrow. I will consider everyone's replies and try to test as much as possible on this and post back. Thanks so much. I was really getting discouraged yesterday. I felt like I had no way out (except a new IP, which I hear isn't cheap). Now, I'm thinking this could all be solved by a little more diagnostic work and replacing a (hopefully) much cheaper part. Thanks again!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:32 PM
Mölyapina's Avatar
User title not in use
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Chelmsford, Massachusetts
Posts: 4,353
My two cents...

1) How did the diesel in the spin-on seem strange? You said it looked like it might have water in it. Why do you say this?

2) Have you been getting diesel at different sources? Could it be that you have a bad tank?

3) Are there any leaking gaskets (at the fuel filler neck, for example)? Is this allowing water in?

4) Did you dry the tank after washing it?

Good luck and may God bless your efforts.

Jooseppi
__________________
"Senior Luna, your sense of humor is still loco... but we love it, anyway." -rickymay ____ "Your sense of humor is still loco... " -MBeige ____ "Señor Luna, your sense of humor is quite järjetön" -Delibes

1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:49 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 28
More...

I know someone already suggested a way I can test the lift pump, but out of curiosity, where in the fuel delivery process does the lift pump come into play? The hand primer has a hose into it and a hose coming out of it, does the lift pump move fuel from one of these hoses to the other (the same way the primer pump does) or are they just located near one another?

Also, in response to Jooseppi Luna,

1) I may be paranoid, but I have seen water and diesel together before and it reminded me of this (a little). I actually saved the diesel form the filter, hoping someone would think this was relevant. I will post a picture tomorrow.
2) I have gotten diesel from different sources, and it could have been poor fuel, but either way, I still want to know why fuel isn't coming out of the IP.
3) As far as I can tell, there are no leaking gaskets.
4) The way I washed the tank, I think should have been okay, but truthfully I am a little paranoid about this....I removed all lines going to or from the tank. I sprayed in some engine degreaser. I used a power washer and sprayed inside the tank. I drained the tank (by removing the strainer on the bottom of the tank). I did this again. Then, I let the tank sit for several hours with the strainer out and the fuel cap off. Then, I filled the tank up with 3 gallons of diesel. Using my OTHER tank, I drove around my property, taking hard turns, stopping short, etc. to try to get the diesel to slosh around in the tank. I then drained and safely disposed of this 3 gallons of diesel (which looked very clean to me, but I didn't want to risk it. I then put diesel in the newly cleaned tank primed the lines for that tank and ran the engine off the newly cleaned tank. I drove it around my property on that tank for about 30 minutes and concluded that everything was a success. I even started it on that tank a few days later, and eventually unintentionally ran that tank dry. I hope I didn't make an error here and cause water contamination, but before this new issue started I switched to using the OTHER tank and used it for a week or so (on my property only) and there was no issue at that point.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page