OM617 - no oil pressure when cranking - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

whunter · #46 01-03-2013, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

Greetings all!

I've spent many an hour poring over the information here on your forums, and you all have saved me countless dollars and hours already. Thank you for your help already given.

I now need more input. I've searched your fine forums and have found nothing.

I have swapped an OM617 into a '90 Toyota pickup. It is now time to start for the first time. I've got the glow plugs pulled and have been cranking the engine over while purging the injector lines of air and such, while keeping an eye on the mechanical oil pressure gauge. Not even so much as a quiver, though I've cranked the engine for probably 2+ minutes combined. I pulled the oil filter and took a peek - a bit of oil in the bottom of the housing and that's it. I pulled the turbo oil supply line - not a drop coming out. Pulled the oil fill cap - not seeing anything being flung around the top of the motor. I filled the oil filter housing with oil(knowing it will drain back into the sump) and reinstalled filter+cover/rod. Cranked, no luck.

At this point, this oil issue is the only thing keeping me from reinstalling the glow plugs and firing her up. What should I do next?

Thanks all, truly appreciated.

Edit: The O-rings on the end of the rod that goes down the center of the oil filter are shot and will be replaced. Other posts show people having a slight improvement in hot idle oil pressure after replacing these O-rings. Is this my problem, letting the oil drain right back into the oil pan without going through the filter and into the oiling system?

Not in a huge hurry to start this engine with apparently zero oil flow.

Please take a look at this thread
Prestart oil prime of a long storage engine can save your bearings and bank account.

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Brian Carlton · #47 01-03-2013, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozarkdude

Just to point out though, as I recall the oil that drains through the filter housing will also backfill into the main oil galley. The point of priming a pump is to get it wet enough to draw oil up from the sump. Just like a hand pump water well, where you pour some water down to wet the leathers so it can "draw" water. A dry oil pump simply spins in air and does nothing. Even a small amount of oil that comes down from above and wets the pump, will prime it.

No disagreement there. The issue was simply whether you could fill the oil filter housing to prevent the extended time interval that must develop to fill the housing until oil pressure will climb.

If you're filling the housing for the purpose of filling the galleries, then have at it. That's not what I took you to task for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozarkdude

And as I also stated, if that fails to work you can also prime it by pushing oil into the engine after removing the oil sending unit.

You do understand the location of the oil sending unit on this engine, correct? Because of your 40 years of experience, you, of course, realize that it's impossible to remove the oil sending unit unless you remove the oil filter housing. Here's a statement by another mechanic with 40 years of experience on Mercedes engines:

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

Removal of the oil filter housing from some engines involves serious creative cursing and blood.

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You plan to have the OP do all that work? Did you consider this before giving the OP this advice?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozarkdude

It is equally ridiculous to state that the oil pickup cant clog. I would not suggest you consider the only one or two youve seen in your entire life as positive proof of that. I have found pickups completely clogged with gasket material, RTV sealant, carbon chunks, sand and grit, etc., from bonehead Joe Mechanics who allowed garbage to fall into the sump while the head was off. I have also found them covered with heavy sludge, thick and hard to even scrape off. With a sump thats so easily dropped, its almost a no brainer to check it. While you in there you can pack the pump and its then primed.

I never stated that the pickup "can't clog". Maybe you ought to read what I post prior to making another false assertion.

The OP stated:

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

Yes, there is oil in the sump. 15w-40 Delo 400.

The engine ran fine before it was yanked from the donor car, an '83 300SD w/ 273k on it. Before it was yanked from the car, I started it cold, drove it around the junk yard, let it get up to full operating temperature, checked all fluids, etc. All was well then.

Unlike yourself, I thought about his situation before posting random information about other engines that I rebuilt that have little relevance in this situation. I considered the likelihood of a clogged pickup screen which developed from the time he removed the engine until the time he installed the engine. You'll note that he did not rebuild the engine in any way. It seemed highly unlikely to me and, therefore, I made the suggestion that a clog in the pickup screen which would completely prevent oil flow wasn't the cause of his failure to develop pressure. You may differ in that opinion and suggest that he drop the lower pan and check. That's what is excellent about opposing opinions that are both valid. We get to see the outcome and one of us will be incorrect. I would have thought that a professional mechanic with 40 years experience would have considered this as well, but............apparently not.

However, what is absolutely not incorrect, despite your "40 years experience as a mechanic including 2 years of Vo Tech auto mechanics, and have worked on just about every car you can name plus a lot of other engines including some heavy diesels, aircraft and exotic cars" is the fact that you cannot fill a 617 oil filter housing and get the cover in place before 90% of it drains down into the pan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozarkdude

Cant change plugs on your van without breaking things and taking all day?

Oh, I didn't take "all day" to change plugs on the van. That would be another factually incorrect statement on your part. I'm going on three weeks with no sign of completion. So, if you want to insult me for the time it takes me to reverse an impossibly bad design by Chrysler, at least get your facts straight. My ailing knee with the 30 degree temperatures around here slow me down quite a bit. Maybe you can use the bad knee as additional fodder for my lack of capability and divert the attention from your factually incorrect statements regarding this specific engine.

whunter · #48 01-03-2013, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

The oil filter housing in the OM617 is a complicated beast it does a little bit more than just hold the filter in place.

There's a full description of the intended functionality in chapter 18-005 in the FSM.

A certain amount of oil should be held within the oil filter housing after the system has been operational - oil should be held in place by a non return / check valve at the input to the housing. The minimum level is depicted by the blue line in the picture below.

In practice I assume that this level might be higher due to capillary action / close proximity of the filter sides to the housing and a residual amount of oil contained within the filter.

In a simple "geometric" situation when a filter is not fitted; pouring oil directly into the filter housing:- some of the oil should pool in the bottom of the filter housing and not drain away into the engine. If this doesn't happen then I would suspect that the non return valve in the filter housing (shown at the big black arrow just above the number 4) is leaking. This would not be ideal as the whole filter housing could drain when the pump stops pumping - resulting in oil starvation at start up, as the pump has to pump the oil for longer to refill the housing before it gets to the parts other beers can not reach etc...

...the red arrows show the direction of the flow out of the filter housing after it has passed through either the fine or coarse part of the filter elements.

I hope this information helps.

The graphic helps.

The valves can become gummed and covered with sediment, holding them open.

I have been forced to remove the oil filter housing from many engines, because they do not hold/retain the required oil in this area: per design intent.

The valves are not a tight seal, and will leak down, when new it took several days, now I am will accept one hour (if the engine is primed).

Disassembly and cleaning is not difficult.
Removal of the oil filter housing from some engines involves serious creative cursing and blood.

Depending on circumstances, the housing can normally retain one quart + whats draining from the oil cooler lines.

Plan to make a mess and be happy if yours is easy.

The gasket between oil filter housing and engine block is an age related failure = this gasket MUST be replaced at this time, NEVER re-used.

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whunter · #49 01-03-2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozarkdude

Cant change plugs on your van without breaking things and taking all day?

I deal with this exact issue on the old Dodge 318 vans many times per year.
The problem is extreme corrosion and limited access.

We have discussed this on the phone, several times.
I could do the job faster, special tools and more experience gained at great pain.
Given his working outside in frigid weather, health issues, etc, the job is proceeding at the best possible pace.

If you want more detail, call me, but don't try to use this as an insult.

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whunter · #50 01-03-2013, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

You plan to have the OP do all that work? Did you consider this before giving the OP this advice?

Calm down and read the blasted post.
It was an FYI to go with the graphic, nothing more.

Look at post# 46......

Do you see the link ?

Please take a look at this thread
Prestart oil prime of a long storage engine can save your bearings and bank account.

There is IMO only one reasonable, correct, safe way to assuredly pressurize the oil gallery and bearings without using the engine oil pump, and the oil drain plug must be removed, or you will over fill the crankcase.

I am setup to do this, as I try to keep at least five engines ready to install, on the shelf.

The engine may set three years before use, and I pressurize the oil gallery and bearings before it goes in the body.

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Brian Carlton · #51 01-03-2013, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

Calm down and read the blasted post.
It was an FYI to go with the graphic, nothing more.

Look at post# 46......

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I'm perfectly calm, thanks, and I read the post completely.

I was refuting the suggestion that the oil sending unit be removed to allow the galleries to be filled. As you know, getting the sending unit off the filter housing with the housing in place is effectively impossible. It seemed a bit ridiculous to me to remove the oil filter housing for that purpose.

Your post further confirms that such an approach would not work in any case. Clearly, you have utilized special equipment to be assured that the galleries are filled.

whunter · #52 01-03-2013, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

I'm perfectly calm, thanks, and I read the post completely.

I was refuting the suggestion that the oil sending unit be removed to allow the galleries to be filled. As you know, getting the sending unit off the filter housing with the housing in place is effectively impossible. It seemed a bit ridiculous to me to remove the oil filter housing for that purpose.

Your post further confirms that such an approach would not work in any case. Clearly, you have utilized special equipment to be assured that the galleries are filled.

There is a misunderstanding.

I have no issue removing the sender unit, some from the top and some from under the vehicle = they all come off without special tools.

The 300D and earlier mechanical gauge engines:
I remove the oil pressure tube from the filter housing, pressurizing through the port.

W116 300SD, W126 300SD and later electrical oil sender is accessible for the exact same procedure.

Some of the OM60x engines are a bit more fun because the only easy access is from under the car.

Once you figure out the correct access thirty minutes should have everything ready.

Then all you need is a pressure port adapter and crush washer.
My most commonly used one is made from a new OM616/617 engine oil pan drain plug, center bored and tapped for 1/8 pipe + a crush washer.
You should check that your sensor thread matches the drain plug before spending time fabricating this adapter.

You check the thread by eye, and you can try screwing the sensor into the drain plug hole.

I have several different plumbing and pump rigs.
If you want a guage to watch, the minimum number is 7-9 psi, anything higher is good up to 44 psi.

Removing the oil filter housing is on some engines (in car) almost a blood ritual, and I was pointing out maintenance you want to do while it is out = so you do not need to remove it again for many years.

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Brian Carlton · #53 01-03-2013, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

There is a misunderstanding.

I have no issue removing the sender unit, some from the top and some from under the vehicle = they all come off without special tools.

.

Well, all I can say is that you're very skilled in getting into spaces that would be ridiculous for the average mechanic. That sending unit is wedged behind the housing right against the firewall on the W126. How you could possibly adapt a fitting to get into that space is simply beyond me.

OM617YOTA · #54 01-03-2013, 07:46 PM

Greetings all- Thanks for the help.

Thank you Whunter for that link. I did read it while researching before starting this thread, and I appreciate the reminder.

I've procured/built my oil pre-lube system and will be proceeding this weekend. 25 degrees and fading daylight at the moment.....

This engine is mounted in a 1990 Toyota pickup, in place of the 3.0 liter V6. I have no experience working on this motor in an MBZ car, but in my particular application there is PLENTY of room to access the oil pressure sender.

My plan is to remove the current oil pressure sender line, plumb in the pre-lube pump, drain the oil that's in the sump now, and start pumping oil in through the oil pressure sender port. When oil starts dripping out of the drain plug hole again, I'll spin the engine by hand a few times, then plug the drain hole and refill. Remove prelube pump, reinstall pressure gauge line, proceed w/ startup.

Thank you for the tip about the drilled out + retapped drain plug. I used an Equus gauge adapter, and Equus drilled the hole through the center so large that the walls are ridiculously thin. I can barely apply any torque before it snaps off - ask me how I know.

Thanks again, folks. Keep the info coming. We ever get together in person, the first round is on me.

Ozarkdude · #55 01-04-2013, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

This engine is mounted in a 1990 Toyota pickup, in place of the 3.0 liter V6.

Thats quite an achievement, your obviously not a rookie at that stuff. I for one will be watching to see how it works out, as im sure many others here will as well.

OM617YOTA · #56 01-17-2013, 05:36 PM

Just an update.

I got the oil prelube system built, got the engine prelubed, reassembled all the plumbing, and attempted to start the engine.

The battery I was using wasn't up to the task, even with the battery charger connected. Worked fine for rotating engine w/ the glow plugs out for bleeding injectors and such, and just wasn't up to cranking against full compression w/ glow plugs running. Engine made maybe two rotations before the battery conked out. I have other vehicles I can use for a jump start, along with real jumper cables, and had planned on replacing the current battery with an Optima all along........

Anyway, life threw a curve ball at me, and temporary health issues prevent me from continuing this project at the moment. As soon as I'm back on my feet I'll be back at it.

Thanks again all for the advice and warm words.

Stretch · #57 01-18-2013, 03:03 AM

Get well soon and then get some pictures up of the work you've done so far - I'm sure lots of people here would like to see your achievements to date.

OM617YOTA · #58 02-26-2013, 09:44 PM

Got an update, folks.

I built the prelube system and employed it, got everything nice and oily, put everything back together. Filled the cooling system. Moment of truth! Hit the glow plug button for 30 seconds or so, then cranked her over. Crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank.

Nada. Nothing. Not a cough, no poof, no mist out the exhaust, nothing.

Come back here, double check that I bled injectors right. Yep I did, at least in theory. Complete lack of any response coupled with the engine having run just fine before I bought it seems to me to indicate that I didn't actually bleed the injectors well enough.

What's the best way to do it? I purged the filters with the hand primer pump until fuel and no air came out the return line, then cracked open the injector lines at the injectors and cranked until fuel started coming out of those lines. Probably a tablespoon of fuel out of each injector line, is that enough to make sure the air is out of the system, or should I do more?

I've bled old tractors before. Had someone lean on the starter button while loosening the injector lines one at a time. Bunch of foamy diesel would come out and then when it ran clear you'd tighten the line back down and the engine would run on that one cylinder. On to the next. Shakey mess towards the end when you had 3 or 4 cylinders out of a 6 cylinder engine running while bleeding the last couple injectors. Are these motors the same way?

Thanks again all. I'll get photos up soon. Kind of embarrassed by my gravel floor "garage", but what the heck.

Stretch · #59 03-01-2013, 02:34 PM

After you are sure that the secondary filter is full and you've pumped as many times as you can really be bothered on the hand pump and there's still no joy...

...You need a strong battery but bleeding by cracking the unions at the top of the injectors often helps.

OM617YOTA · #60 03-17-2013, 10:31 PM

The beast lives!

After mucho cranking and bleeding with no fire, I bought a diesel compression test. 140psi on cyl 1, 30-80psi on the remaining cylinders. WTF, how did I drive it around the lot?

Yanked the valve cover, checked valve clearances, and found none. I could not fit my finest feeler gauge between the rocker arm and the cam on any valve. Reset valve clearances to proper specs, rechecked compression, well over 200psi on all cylinders. Still low for a diesel, but should fire her up if I get enough heat in the cylinders.

Cranked some more, 7+ year old 650cca battery not up to snuff - no surprise. Replaced w/ brand new 850cca battery.

Shazam, it starts! Beautiful sound! I especially like the exhaust note out of the 2 1/4" straight pipe. Can't wait to hear the turbo through it while cruising down the road.

Note: I should recheck the compression w/ the new battery. Cranks MUCH faster now.

And last but not least, oil pressure indeed came up a few seconds after starting. 90+ psi, good to go.

Thanks all for the help and support. This concludes my oil pressure dilemma, and future episodes in the OM617 Yota swap series will be in new threads.

Thank you all.