Hybrids: Long-term costs
 

(While only tangentially related to diesel, I include this thread here since, as diesel owners, we're interested in the cost of running our cars vis-a-vis other technologies.)

Never owned a hybrid...don't know that I ever will. But I'm intrigued by the technology....and have wondered whether a plug-in diesel hybrid might be something of a holy grail.

Hybrids are very fuel efficient....but at what ultimate cost? My daughter has driven an 03 Civic hybrid for the last couple of years. Loves the car, loves the fuel economy. But, at last, the IMA battery light has come on and she's told that the battery needs to be replaced. Cost? $5,000! (includes a whopping 15 hours of labor.) That's about the value of the car. So clearly whatever money one saves on fuel along the way is more than eaten up by the eventual cost of maintaining the technology that saves the money in the first place.

I'm trying to figure out what happens when the battery actually dies....does the car continue to drive fine? If so, at what reduced fuel economy? Hardly seems to make sense to spend the $5,000.....especially since she doesn't have that kind of money.

We bought an 05 escape hybrid 4x4. Drives nice, pulls great. Good in deep snow or sand- full torque available from go. Unlike a 616, leadfooting will kill your mileage. I get 30 mpg out of it, she gets low 20's. Like anything else made in the last 5-10 years, get a backup cam.

No experience with hybrids either, but depending on the condition of the car if the $5,000 garners another 100,000 miles of use then maybe its worth the investment?

Its fairly easy to invest more in repairs / maint on an older mercedes than the resell value but plenty of folks on this forum do it.

Maybe the equation should be cost of repairs minus future selling price divided by expected future life (miles) you expect to drive the used car instead of current resale value of car vs repair costs?

Talked to Honda....service rep said car would continue to drive with dead battery and that mileage would be reduced by about 1/3.

I thought I read somewhere (yes, helpful I know) that in the US you had federally mandated extended warranties on those hybrid batteries. Though if hers is an '03, maybe it's outside that window.

$5k is a huge bill, but as this is a dealer speaking, it's probably the equivalent of what they would estimate for any other major 'system' repair: a short block motor, or an automatic transmission replacement, as examples.

Also, as you followed up with, you can still drive the car in its current state. That is something at least.

Simple math at that point.

1) Calculate total cost of repair.

2) Calculate time it would take for the cost of 1/3 reduction in fuel mileage to equate to cost of repair.

3) answer the question, "Will she keep the car for that amount of time or longer?"

4) If yes, then cost of repair is worthwhile,

5) If no, then the relatively lesser cost of 'extra' fuel due to mileage reduction does not justify the repair.

The problem is not that $5000/- will be the end of the story, the IMA sandwich can also go bad (seen that once) and it then again bills for huge labour bill as the transmission needs to get out of the car.

Hybrids are the epitome of "built to die" use them for 5 years and dump em.

btw - if this IMA sandwich dies then you are left with a non starting engine too.

In a toyota Prius there are two motor generators and its not uncommon for the MG2 to give up the ghost - then repair to the tune of USD5000/- more or less. This does not include the battery module.

This is why I'm driving around at 22mpg. A new head would get me up to 26-28, but the $500 isn't worth it.

My advice is to call around and make sure it's actually the battery pack-how many 617's are sold for nothing because they run rough when the real problem is maladjusted valves and out of spec injectors?

If it really is the battery pack, remove it yourself and sell it as a 'core' to someone who reconditions the packs. The reduced weight ought to help your mileage.

Many of the "bad" battery packs can be reconditioned. There's a dude on the web who does this for a reasonable charge. (i've got the link somewhere)

I wonder if the reason why no automaker has a turbodiesel/electric hybrid avaable in the USA is still because of 'merrikun consumers not liking diesel because they think it's smelly & noisy & smoky.

We're on our second Toyota Prius -- we bought both when they were five years old, and traded the first one in on the second after five years when I ran across a good deal.

It's my wife's car -- I want something absolutely trouble-free. Both Prii have filled that requirement nicely.

The only issue I've run across is that Toyota dealers tend to be rapacious in my neck of the woods, and I believe it's easy to talk many Prius owners into expensive repairs. It's been particularly bad in recent years with new-car sales down and service revenue increasingly important to dealerships.

Shertex, you need a second opinion from an independent wrench who specializes in hybrids. I believe a capable independent could replace the traction battery in my Prius (as an example) for about $2K, but I wouldn't be afraid to tackle the job myself. From the web forums I've read, it looks straightforward. I don't know why a Honda would be much different.

Here's a post on R&Ring the IMA battery for a Honda Insight to give you an idea. IMO, 15 hours of labor is a joke. Should be more like two or three.

If you're really OCD, you should also apply a discount to the future cash flow provided by performing the repair. Based on the time value of money, a string of future payments is worth less then the equivalent cash in hand today. So if the repair costs $5K today, you need to save comfortably more than that number over the coming years to economically justify the repair. Lots of calculators on the web make it easy to compute the value of a string of payments.

Hybrid is never worth it. If you drive an average 15K miles per year then a hybrid will only save you about $55 per month in gas. Assuming the hybrid gets 45mpg and a normal car get 30mpg. A diesel TDI can beat a hybrid. It will take you 90 months to recoup the $5K, by then a new battery again. It is a zero sum game.

$5K is a lot of money to invest in a car at this late game. If I were you I would check eBay for used one when the car is wrecked, then install it yourself. I seem to read somewhere that Prius battery is quite reliable. There are still gen1 or 2 Prius on the road with original battery.

Good luck.

I know a few Prius owners and all dusted their hands off the car when something went cuckoo. One was the transmission motor generator no.2 burning out. It was costing $6000/- to repair as it also killed some other bits too.

It was a non-moving car hence was trading for scrap money... Severe burn to wallet.

I do a search and Prius seems to be very reliable, including battery. I think your friends experience is unusual rather then the norm. Personally I would not buy one but the choice is yours.

Ten-Year Old Toyota Hybrid Priuses Defy Early Critics
Prius owners - How do Prius tend to do after 100,000 miles? Would it be a bad idea to buy one over 100k miles? - Yahoo! Answers
How reliable has your Prius been? | PriusChat

I'm not sure if this is accurate. I know a guy who had the opportunity to buy an 04 Civic hybrid with a dead battery. He indicated that without the battery, the car was dead.

I suspect that the electric motor drives the wheels and the gas engine assists and charges the batteries.

Had he bought it, we joked about putting one of those huge baked bean can mufflers on so that when the engine did kick in, you'll have an almighty racket :)