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-   -   Starter not grounded properly? (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/334017-starter-not-grounded-properly.html)

Stugist 01-29-2013 12:21 PM

Starter not grounded properly?
 
The car in question: my girlfriend's '79 240D automatic.

It's been having issues starting since we've gotten it. I determined it was a number of issues, including air getting into the fuel system via a bad IP seal to injector hardline #4 (still have to fix that) and a starter/solenoid combo going bad. It's the latter that's giving me real issues.

I got a rebuilt Bosch turbo starter from -insertobvoiscompanyhereinBellinghamWA- and spent a good 5, 6 hours finagling the old one out and getting this bad boy in. Near the end, I was having difficulty wiring-up the new starter, mostly not remembering which wires go where. Saw this by arching and bad sparking when touching the battery terminals with the connectors, meaning there was obvious load on the system. Called my friend over who also is a dieselhead to help me, and we finally got it hooked up and started with no issue (other than the air leak making the turnover difficult).

It went all south last night. I drove her car to college to stretch its legs. Started up fine at the house. Didn't even engage when I tried to start it after class a few hours later. Turn the key, wait for the glow light, turn to fire the starter... -click-. Hit the starter and solenoid a few times, kept trying. Nothing. Called AAA and they sent out a local tow truck. Told him my issue, so we both started messing with it. Here's what gets me confused: He took out a metal rod and when he touched the positive terminal of the starter and the support bar for the air cleaner housing, it started right up. Now, I now you can normally bypass the switch by jumping the connection between the positive starter terminal and the small terminal for the ignition switch. But he just grounded the system. I thought the starter grounded itself to the block...? :confused:

So, tl;dr version: Is the starter not grounded properly?

Phillytwotank 01-29-2013 12:39 PM

could be as simple as loose conections

Jeremy5848 01-29-2013 01:05 PM

The starter indeed grounds through the engine block BUT there is a ground strap from the block (usually back where the transmission attaches) to the chassis. This strap is under the car where it can get dirty/rusty/damaged. Check this strap and its bolts and make sure they are clean and tight. Then as Philly says, check all around the battery and the starter for loose or otherwise non-optimum connections.

Jeremy

t walgamuth 01-29-2013 01:07 PM

x2 on loose or bad connections. Loose or corroded. Sometimes an auxiliary ground wire from the battery to one of the starter mount bolts will help.

Stugist 01-29-2013 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy5848 (Post 3091728)
The starter indeed grounds through the engine block BUT there is a ground strap from the block (usually back where the transmission attaches) to the chassis. This strap is under the car where it can get dirty/rusty/damaged. Check this strap and its bolts and make sure they are clean and tight. Then as Philly says, check all around the battery and the starter for loose or otherwise non-optimum connections.

Jeremy

Didn't know there was a grounding strap down there...I'll take a look when I get home from work. Easy to spot?

Jeremy5848 01-29-2013 01:20 PM

Ground strap
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stugist (Post 3091733)
Didn't know there was a grounding strap down there...I'll take a look when I get home from work. Easy to spot?

Easy for me, maybe, but I know what I'm looking for. If I were looking for the first time it might be a different story. Here's a picture of my '96 E300D, taken during a starter motor operation. The ground strap or wire is pretty obvious. I don't know how different your '79 is, I've never seen one underneath.

Jeremy

http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/n...emove_3931.jpg

ah-kay 01-29-2013 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stugist (Post 3091710)
He took out a metal rod and when he touched the positive terminal of the starter and the support bar for the air cleaner housing, it started right up.

Really do not understand what he did. I would expect sparks flying when he touched the positive terminal of the starter to chassis using the metal rod. I am not sure it is the grounding strap.

You should have asked him what he did.

cooljjay 01-29-2013 01:51 PM

The only way I can possible think of, how this is possible is if the glow plugs were upgraded to pencil style from loop and the ground strap was connected to the last pencil plug. This would in theory add 12v to the block.

I would personally remove the battery and battery box, and get a better view at the wires connected to the solenoid and confirm everything is hooked up properly and none of the wires touching.

Stugist 01-29-2013 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooljjay (Post 3091751)
The only way I can possible think of, how this is possible is if the glow plugs were upgraded to pencil style from loop and the ground strap was connected to the last pencil plug. This would in theory add 12v to the block.

I would personally remove the battery and battery box, and get a better view at the wires connected to the solenoid and confirm everything is hooked up properly and none of the wires touching.

I'll take a look at that too; the plugs are the upgraded pencil-style. I don't recall if the PO(s) removed that old GP ground or not.

Zulfiqar 01-29-2013 02:34 PM

If my eyes are not dodgy in reading

Im seeing that someone connected the positive thick battery wire to the starter to an engine ground - this will cause massive sparks/welding/fire as you are dead shorting the battery.

By connecting the starter small and big wire terminals together you are bypassing everything and the starter motor is energizing, which is proves that the ground is good - that motor sucks north of 400 amps when turning that high CR 4 cyl diesel. A bad ground would cause the motor not to operate at all in that case.

What you have is low amps from the key/NSS to the starter solenoid, you can test this by using a sealed beam headlamp or a working H4 bulb with both elements connected together combined to give a load of about 10 amps. If you test that the solenoid wire can immediately illuminate the beam to full bright your system is good, if its faint or orange glow, resolve it.

You might also want to add a starter relay (aka hot start relay) to boost the system.

Stugist 01-29-2013 04:41 PM

So, just to be clear, the main wire from the battery comes into the top terminal, and the wire to the alternator also connects to that top terminal. There are two small wires; a purple one which I assume is the direct line to the starter, and a bypass line for the glow relay. Nothing connects to the bottom (ground) large terminal.

Right...?

kerry 01-29-2013 04:47 PM

Not sure what you mean by the 'bottom'ground' large terminal'.

As I see it, all the AAA guy did was provide a path for the current to flow from the positive terminal to the negative terminal while running thru the starter. In other words, grounding the small starter terminal wire mimics the engagement of the ignition switch, activating the solenoid.

cooljjay 01-29-2013 04:49 PM

When I changed put my starter on my 1978. There was the large wire that runs to the battery and a group of smaller red wires that connected with that cable to the top nut. The small Phillips screw held one red wire that I assume goes to the ignition and the bottom nut held nothing but the braided wire that goes to the starter motor. I never had a purple wire. Its possible someone has been tampering with the wires.

Stugist 01-29-2013 05:35 PM

Talked with my brother just now. He works on forklifts in a local lumber yard that've had this same issue. Apparently, the starters can ship with residual charge in them. he just hooked a separate ground cable up to the starter and the block to drain it. Removed that cable, car fired right up.

Interesting....

Zulfiqar 01-29-2013 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stugist (Post 3091811)
So, just to be clear, the main wire from the battery comes into the top terminal, and the wire to the alternator also connects to that top terminal. There are two small wires; a purple one which I assume is the direct line to the starter, and a bypass line for the glow relay. Nothing connects to the bottom (ground) large terminal.

Right...?

If the AAA guy grounded the lower solenoid terminal that has a braided wire going into the starter windings then your starter is a bit corroded internally or the brush pack holding screws are stripped or corroded. They are the ground.

The solenoid takes it ground from inside the starter windings for the pull coil which then bridges the high current contacts in the solenoid for the motor to work.

You need to remove that starter and overhaul it.

ah-kay 01-29-2013 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stugist (Post 3091842)
Apparently, the starters can ship with residual charge in them.

I really do not want to confuse you with any more info than what is posted here already. Most of the info here is wrong or mis-leading. You need to sort out the wiring, starter circuit is extremely simple. I do not have the same car so I cannot tell you the exact configuration but it is similar in ALL old cars.

There is NO residual charge in a starter. Anyone tell you that is BS. There is no CAPACITOR in a starter. Even if there is, it is so small that it would have discharged very quickly thru the winding. Recheck your wiring. what have been posted does not make sense. No need to remove it, just check the wiring for now.

whunter 01-29-2013 06:44 PM

Answer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stugist (Post 3091710)
The car in question: my girlfriend's '79 240D automatic.

It's been having issues starting since we've gotten it. I determined it was a number of issues, including air getting into the fuel system via a bad IP seal to injector hardline #4 (still have to fix that) and a starter/solenoid combo going bad. It's the latter that's giving me real issues.

I got a rebuilt Bosch turbo starter from -insertobvoiscompanyhereinBellinghamWA- and spent a good 5, 6 hours finagling the old one out and getting this bad boy in. Near the end, I was having difficulty wiring-up the new starter, mostly not remembering which wires go where. Saw this by arching and bad sparking when touching the battery terminals with the connectors, meaning there was obvious load on the system. Called my friend over who also is a dieselhead to help me, and we finally got it hooked up and started with no issue (other than the air leak making the turnover difficult).

It went all south last night. I drove her car to college to stretch its legs. Started up fine at the house. Didn't even engage when I tried to start it after class a few hours later. Turn the key, wait for the glow light, turn to fire the starter... -click-. Hit the starter and solenoid a few times, kept trying. Nothing. Called AAA and they sent out a local tow truck. Told him my issue, so we both started messing with it. Here's what gets me confused: He took out a metal rod and when he touched the positive terminal of the starter and the support bar for the air cleaner housing, it started right up. Now, I now you can normally bypass the switch by jumping the connection between the positive starter terminal and the small terminal for the ignition switch. But he just grounded the system. I thought the starter grounded itself to the block...? :confused:

So, tl;dr version: Is the starter not grounded properly?

The bold text tells the story.
If the battery was not getting a boost ?

My diagnosis would in order be:
#1. A bad starter/engine ground connection.
#2. A failing neutral safety switch.
#3. A failing ignition switch.

.

Diesel911 01-29-2013 07:55 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stugist (Post 3091811)
So, just to be clear, the main wire from the battery comes into the top terminal, and the wire to the alternator also connects to that top terminal. There are two small wires; a purple one which I assume is the direct line to the starter, and a bypass line for the glow relay. Nothing connects to the bottom (ground) large terminal.

Right...?

The Nut and Strap that are between the Starter Housing and the Solenoid is another Posative connection. When the Solenoid Moves it connects the large + Termnial with that lower Large Termainl and that is what causes the Starter to rotate.

I don't remember if this is a Pic of a Delco Starter or a Mercedes Starter but they both have similar parts and work the same.
The Red arrow point to the 2 High Amperage Contacts that the Solenoid connects to each other when the Sonlenoid is activated.

Diesel911 01-29-2013 07:58 PM

If nothing is happening at all when the Key is turned it could be the Neutral Safety Switch or the Ignigion Switch.

When you Turn the Key to the Start Position one of those Purple (Violet) wires that attaches to the small Terminal on the Starter Solenoid should get Voltage.

layback40 01-29-2013 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911 (Post 3091924)
The Nut and Strap that are between the Starter Housing and the Solenoid is another Posative connection. When the Solenoid Moves it connects the large + Termnial with that lower Large Termainl and that is what causes the Starter to rotate.

I don't remember if this is a Pic of a Delco Starter or a Mercedes Starter but they both have similar parts and work the same.
The Red arrow point to the 2 High Amperage Contacts that the Solenoid connects to each other when the Sonlenoid is activated.

That looks like a w123 starter!

layback40 01-29-2013 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stugist (Post 3091710)
The car in question: my girlfriend's '79 240D automatic.

It's been having issues starting since we've gotten it. I determined it was a number of issues, including air getting into the fuel system via a bad IP seal to injector hardline #4 (still have to fix that) and a starter/solenoid combo going bad. It's the latter that's giving me real issues.

I got a rebuilt Bosch turbo starter from -insertobvoiscompanyhereinBellinghamWA- and spent a good 5, 6 hours finagling the old one out and getting this bad boy in. Near the end, I was having difficulty wiring-up the new starter, mostly not remembering which wires go where. Saw this by arching and bad sparking when touching the battery terminals with the connectors, meaning there was obvious load on the system. Called my friend over who also is a dieselhead to help me, and we finally got it hooked up and started with no issue (other than the air leak making the turnover difficult).

It went all south last night. I drove her car to college to stretch its legs. Started up fine at the house. Didn't even engage when I tried to start it after class a few hours later. Turn the key, wait for the glow light, turn to fire the starter... -click-. Hit the starter and solenoid a few times, kept trying. Nothing. Called AAA and they sent out a local tow truck. Told him my issue, so we both started messing with it. Here's what gets me confused: He took out a metal rod and when he touched the positive terminal of the starter and the support bar for the air cleaner housing, it started right up. Now, I now you can normally bypass the switch by jumping the connection between the positive starter terminal and the small terminal for the ignition switch. But he just grounded the system. I thought the starter grounded itself to the block...? :confused:

So, tl;dr version: Is the starter not grounded properly?

He probably bumped the air cleaner housing unintentionally. What he was doing was shorting across the starter between the 2 main terminals on the solenoid. You have an issue with the solenoid or the control wire.

layback40 01-29-2013 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ah-kay (Post 3091845)
I really do not want to confuse you with any more info than what is posted here already. Most of the info here is wrong or mis-leading. You need to sort out the wiring, starter circuit is extremely simple. I do not have the same car so I cannot tell you the exact configuration but it is similar in ALL old cars.

There is NO residual charge in a starter. Anyone tell you that is BS. There is no CAPACITOR in a starter. Even if there is, it is so small that it would have discharged very quickly thru the winding. Recheck your wiring. what have been posted does not make sense. No need to remove it, just check the wiring for now.

X2
ah, this is absolutely correct.

vstech 01-29-2013 08:36 PM

so... what does the car do now?
ZERO chance bumping the air cleaner housing had ANYTHING to do with starting the car. however, if he connected the rod from the negative cable on the battery and touched to the air cleaner mount, THAT might have given the starter a solid ground, and allowed the start.
my bet is the shifter bushings are off... what confuses me is the click...
NSS would not have allowed the click. a dead battery will cause the starter to click...
most likely, the starter is internally worn, and needs replacement if it clicks with a good battery, if the battery is good.
a weak ground strap will cause the starter to merely click, and not start.
the pic above of the ground strap is similar to what the 79 would have, but it's shorter.
the cable will be on the driver's side.

Stugist 01-30-2013 01:41 AM

Just got home. Girlfriend informed me that she drove my brother's fiancee home earlier while I was out. Told me the car started no problem. I'm not doing anything after work tomorrow, so I'll pop the hood and start checking the system over, starting with the battery. I'll post pics, too. From what I've read, I'm mainly looking out for bad grounds. I'm pretty sure it is wired up correctly, but I'll take a pic or two of it. Now here's a question; As I've mentioned, she has the pencil GP upgrade. There's a wire running from the GP relay to the battery AND to the starter, where it connects to the same terminal as the ignition wire. I'm not entirely sure how that system works. Is it to compensate for the fact that the parallel-style GP system needs more juice than the factory relay can produce?

I know it's slightly unrelated, but I want to be sure that it's wired properly. :D

vstech 01-30-2013 09:07 AM

if the pencil upgrade included a MB pencil relay, the wire going to the starter is to let the relay know you've started the car so it can shut off.

Diesel911 01-30-2013 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 3092157)
if the pencil upgrade included a MB pencil relay, the wire going to the starter is to let the relay know you've started the car so it can shut off.

The Wire (on mine Violet) connected from the Glow Plug Relay to the Starter Solenoid keeps the Glow Plug on during cranking. Releasing the Key from cranking turns the relay off.

On My Car the Steering Colum Lock is out of the car and the Ignition Switch came with it and I needed to start and move My Car. I used that Prurple (Violet) Wire applied to + Voltage today to preglow and then took the wire that goes to the Solenoid and appled to the + to crank and start.
I just did that about 1 hour ago.

dubadxx 01-30-2013 10:16 PM

What is happening when the starter whines when you turn the key? usually a couple attempts later it will turn over and the starter will engage and start the car.

whunter 01-30-2013 10:53 PM

Answer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dubadxx (Post 3092683)
What is happening when the starter whines when you turn the key? usually a couple attempts later it will turn over and the starter will engage and start the car.

* The starter solenoid is (damaged) failing to engage.
* The solenoid lever "pivot pin" has (loosened) backed out.
* The starter solenoid mounting screws have (loosened) backed out.

Remove the starter for inspection, and testing.

.


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