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-   -   Little or NO power after bottoming out suspension- 1981 300SD (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/334427-little-no-power-after-bottoming-out-suspension-1981-300sd.html)

funola 02-24-2013 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarTek (Post 3104978)
The timing device is what advances the injection timing. It has two "halves", an inner and an outer with a set of fly weights attached to one side with cams that move the two sides in relation to one another when the weights move outward.

It works just like the mechanical advance in the distributor of a gas engine except that it's a much beefier piece since a significant amount of power is transmitted through it to turn the pump.

The fly weights inside the pump are for the governing action.

Thanks KarTek for the explanation! I must be confusing it with the rotary (VE) pumps, where both fuel pressure and the governor (fly weighs) are used for injection timing advance via the timing piston.

I currently have a VE pump completely disassembled (I have done the disassembly/ re-assembly twice now for fun and practice). Never taken apart an in-line pump (yet).

In the rotary pumps, the timing piston rotates the roller cage/ cam disk for timing advance action. How is the advance done in the in-line pumps? The timing device must somehow rotate the pump's cam shaft (relative to the tappets) or rotate the pump body itself. Any diagrams will be helpful.

funola 02-24-2013 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis (Post 3104750)
I wouldn't bet on the timing device, the engine should still run without it. The 12V Cummins in the '94-'98 Dodge didn't even have one- they were fixed timing, and ran fine with that setup.

Does the 94-98 Dogge Cummins use an in-line or rotary pump?

ROLLGUY 03-02-2013 10:56 PM

UPDATE:
 
As much as I would have liked to see something broken inside the timing device, it appears to be functioning as it was designed. The other day the VP was pulled, and I took apart the timing device, leaving the inner part (with the sprocket) installed and timed. I was hoping to see something, ANYTHING, that would have caused the timing not to advance. There were no worn, missing, or otherwise damaged parts inside or outside the timing device. I had a challenge putting it back together, but it went together after a few tries. I decided to at least start it up with the VP off, just in case I got it 180 degrees out. It fired right up, but still does not have much power or high revs. I decided to change the filter housing and the pressure relief valve with a good known working one (a friends 126 two parking spaces away). Still runs the same. I am now at a total loss as to what could be wrong. I have literally changed EVERY part of the fuel delivery system, the turbo, and many other parts chasing down this problem. I would say that the IP could still be the problem, but the million-to-one chance that the wrecking yard IP suffered from the same ailment, has me discounting that idea (pulled it again today to make sure the shaft was not broken). If I had any way to post a youtube video, that might help, but I don't know any way that I can do that. My friend has been without his only transportation for over a month now, and has no money to buy another car. He has to rely on friends to take him everywhere he needs to go. He also lives about 11 miles away from me, so that also makes it hard. Fortunately, he had the car towed to another friends place (only a couple miles from me), so I could work on it easier. All the great suggestions are appreciated, and I am learning a lot. I am getting VERY GOOD at R&Ring an IP, and setting the start of delivery! .

vstech 03-02-2013 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis (Post 3104750)
I wouldn't bet on the timing device, the engine should still run without it. The 12V Cummins in the '94-'98 Dodge didn't even have one- they were fixed timing, and ran fine with that setup.

the Cummins does not rev very high though...

funola 03-02-2013 11:16 PM

Bummer it wasn't the timing device. From the pics of the timing device I've seen from Stretch, I can't imagine anything in it breaking from the impact since the parts look so stout.

Have you done a fuel volume test and compare it to a known good engine? Disable the glow plugs, take the cigar hose off and stick it in a bottle and crank for 5 seconds. Use the same size bottle for easy comparison.

Was the primary filter also changed?

youtube video: upload it to photobucket direct from your phone, copy and past the IMG tag into your post. Easy!

Edit:
If no difference, do the volume test again but start the engine this time and rev both engines to 1800 rpm (or whatever is max) and compare.

ROLLGUY 03-02-2013 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola (Post 3108382)
Was the primary filter also changed?

Yes, with the housing from a known running engine.

kerry 03-03-2013 12:02 AM

This is a real puzzler. We do need a video of the engine starting, running and refusing to run above 1800 rpm's. We're all stumped so we need more info.

Wait a minute---I did think of another test. With the engine running at 1800 rpm's feed more fuel into the air intake. Dribble in some diesel, or spray in some WD-40 or shoot in some propane from a propane bottle. If the engine rpm's don't increase with the additional fuel added separately from the IP, then the problem is not lack of fuel from the IP. If the engine rpm's do increase then we'll know it's not getting enough fuel from the IP.

dude99 03-03-2013 12:12 AM

I can't remember and I didn't feel like wading through 9 pages, but have you confirmed that the timing chain didn't skip a tooth?

ROLLGUY 03-03-2013 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude99 (Post 3108407)
I can't remember and I didn't feel like wading through 9 pages, but have you confirmed that the timing chain didn't skip a tooth?

The timing was checked (TDC & mark on cam tower), and is perfect.

vstech 03-03-2013 12:22 AM

have you removed the intake and exhaust manifolds and run the motor?
have you removed the oil fill cap and run the motor?
have you run the motor with the valve cover off *(VERY MESSY!!!)
it's acting like it's either not getting air or not getting fuel. you've tested nearly everything, lets go for broke!

ROLLGUY 03-03-2013 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 3108401)
This is a real puzzler. We do need a video of the engine starting, running and refusing to run above 1800 rpm's. We're all stumped so we need more info.

Wait a minute---I did think of another test. With the engine running at 1800 rpm's feed more fuel into the air intake. Dribble in some diesel, or spray in some WD-40 or shoot in some propane from a propane bottle. If the engine rpm's don't increase with the additional fuel added separately from the IP, then the problem is not lack of fuel from the IP. If the engine rpm's do increase then we'll know it's not getting enough fuel from the IP.

After the recent parts exchanging/replacing, it seems to rev a little higher (about 2,500?). However, it takes a few seconds to get there. Still barely enough power to move the car on the road. I imagine much slower than a 240 with an automatic loaded with 3 of your biggest buddies. Adding extra fuel somehow does seem like a definitive test.

ROLLGUY 03-03-2013 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 3108411)
have you removed the intake and exhaust manifolds and run the motor?
have you removed the oil fill cap and run the motor?
have you run the motor with the valve cover off *(VERY MESSY!!!)
it's acting like it's either not getting air or not getting fuel. you've tested nearly everything, lets go for broke!

It was ran with the manifolds and turbo off, no difference.
I have not ran it without the oil cap or valve cover off. I have ran it several times without the vac line to the shutoff, so that can be ruled out.

kerry 03-03-2013 12:38 AM

Just pull the U-tube, run the engine and spray some WD-40 into the turbo and see if rev's up.

vstech 03-03-2013 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY (Post 3108417)
It was ran with the manifolds and turbo off, no difference.
I have not ran it without the oil cap or valve cover off. I have ran it several times without the vac line to the shutoff, so that can be ruled out.

No, it cannot.
if the valve cover vent is damaged internally, you will get pressure on the shutoff valve from the INSIDE of the motor.
vacuum line disconnected, and it'll still reduce fuel.

kerry 03-03-2013 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 3108427)
No, it cannot.
if the valve cover vent is damaged internally, you will get pressure on the shutoff valve from the INSIDE of the motor.
vacuum line disconnected, and it'll still reduce fuel.

Presumably, if the engine was run without the turbo, it was run with the PCV hose disconnected and open to atmosphere which would be equivalent to having the oil fill cap off.


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