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#226
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Quick off-topic question: how dangerous is it to run around with this rubber part + strainer off the oil pump? How critical is it?
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[GONE] - 1995 Mercedes E300 Diesel - 130k miles - Smoke Silver (702) over Mushroom leather (265) - Bladder blasting, coast-to-coast work machine. |
#227
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Answer
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Hard cornering at medium speed can expose the pickup tube = sucking air. .
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ASE Master Mechanic asemastermechanic@juno.com Prototype R&D/testing: Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician. Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). Dynamometer. Heat exchanger durability. HV-A/C Climate Control. Vehicle build. Fleet Durability Technical Quality Auditor. Automotive Technical Writer 1985 300SD 1983 300D 1984 190D 2003 Volvo V70 2002 Honda Civic https://www.boldegoist.com/ |
#228
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Quote:
Accepted. How do you manage to "unstarve" them and get the oil pressure back into "normal" range, which is the current situation? If the oil pan crushed the rubber and it sealed to the pickup head, the oil pressure would not magically return after the vehicle is started the next day. |
#229
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Quote:
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85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now 83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD! 83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked |
#230
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whunter, thanks for the pic of the rubber pickup. I had no idea what it looked like. It appears there are 4 feet on the bottom of the rubber pickup to prevent a total suction seal in most instances when the oil pan is dented. How soft is the rubber by the feet? If it was made of a hard plastic (such as Nylon) I would think it would never be able to form a suction seal.
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85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now 83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD! 83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked |
#231
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If the engine isnt knocking then i wouldnt think a main bearing spun, but anything is possible.
I wonder if the internal friction could be coming from the oil pump....?
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1985 300TD Turbo Euro-wagon 1979 280CE 225,200 miles 1985 300D Turbo 264,000 miles 1976 240D 190,000 miles 1979 300TD 220,000 GONE but not forgotten 1976 300D 195,300 miles 1983 300D Turbo 175,000 miles http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...e485-1-2-1.jpg |
#232
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Maybe the bearing didn't "spun"? Judging by the design of the bottom of the pickup with the 4 feet, it wasn't totally starved of oil but partially. It ran with low oil flow and pressure for a mile at 60 to 70 mph, generating a lot of heat between the crank journals and bearings, enough to gall them and generate enough friction to eventually stall the engine.
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85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now 83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD! 83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked |
#233
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FYI
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It is fully spooled up, guess what happens to the turbo bearings when the oil pressure is stopped. .
__________________
ASE Master Mechanic asemastermechanic@juno.com Prototype R&D/testing: Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician. Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). Dynamometer. Heat exchanger durability. HV-A/C Climate Control. Vehicle build. Fleet Durability Technical Quality Auditor. Automotive Technical Writer 1985 300SD 1983 300D 1984 190D 2003 Volvo V70 2002 Honda Civic https://www.boldegoist.com/ |
#234
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Oil pump pickup part number for the 617 and 616
W123.123 240 D
MB# 1161860007 W123.130 300 D MB# 1161860007 W123.133 300D Turbo MB# 1021860007 W116.120 300SD Turbo MB# 1021860007 W126.120 300SD Turbo MB# 1021860007 .
__________________
ASE Master Mechanic asemastermechanic@juno.com Prototype R&D/testing: Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician. Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). Dynamometer. Heat exchanger durability. HV-A/C Climate Control. Vehicle build. Fleet Durability Technical Quality Auditor. Automotive Technical Writer 1985 300SD 1983 300D 1984 190D 2003 Volvo V70 2002 Honda Civic https://www.boldegoist.com/ |
#235
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The lack of oil pressure is a new and potentially significant piece of information. When the bearings are starved for oil, the rate of wear increases and clearances grow. When the clearances grow the oil system gains new flow paths and the overall system resistance drops, so, given the oil pump is a positive displacement type of pump, the pressure drops. Lower pressure means poorer flow through any "normal" clearances. Typically the connecting rod bearings are the ones that get oil first and establish system pressure levels. A low at temperature oil pressure reading with the engine at speed and the number one connecting rod (at least on a 16 valve 190) bearing is shot. The rest will go quickly thereafter since the pressure delivered is much lower than normal, leading to much lower flow rates, higher temperatures and so on.
But, I still don't see how 35 hp of losses can be generated without the engine seizing. Jim
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Own: 1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles), 1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000, 1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles, 1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles. 2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles Owned: 1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law), 1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot), 1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned), 1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles), 1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep) Last edited by JimSmith; 03-15-2013 at 12:21 AM. Reason: no need to sign off twice |
#236
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Quote:
__________________
All Diesel Fleet 1985 R107 300SLD TURBODIESEL 2005 E320 CDI (daily) LOTS of parts for sale! EGR block kit http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/355250-sale-egr-delete-block-off-plate-kit.html 1985 CA emissions 617 owners- You Need This! Sanden style A/C Compressor Mounting Kit for your 616/ 617 For Sale + Install Inst. Sanden Instalation Guide (post 11): http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/367883-sanden-retrofit-installation-guide.html |
#237
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Not having done this job on a 617 I may very well be wrong regarding doing this job, but, I have done it on a 16 valve 190 and it wasn't that big a deal. The 190 had the same oil pressure behavior along with a mess of other issues. Addressing the bearings was relatively easy compared to removing the front cover....
If you intend to pull the engine replacing the bearings is significantly easier. But it involves removing the "upper" oil pan or the bit between the block and the "lower oil pan" or the item you have removed once. It was difficult to do this with the 190 engine in the car, but it could be managed. In general the bearing shells are faced with a softer material to make them sacrificial, at least compared to the crankshaft. On the 190, the car was driven a few thousand miles with the low oil pressure condition - no effect on power but, as noted, there were other items that involved tearing into the engine and bearing replacement was just part of the task in the end. The point is, even after a few thousand miles with the same low oil pressure phenomenon the 190 crankshaft was fine - repairing the problem was confined to replacing the connecting rod bearing shells. The vehicle has had another 45k miles on her since the repair and, like all old cars with 200k plus miles it demands some attention now and then, we have never had to go back into the front cover, the cylinder head or the connecting rod or main bearings again. So, I would mine my way into the connecting rod bearings and take a look at the crank journals before writing the engine off. Those TurboDiesel 617's have nitrided journals which should have helped resist damage. Good luck, Jim
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Own: 1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles), 1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000, 1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles, 1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles. 2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles Owned: 1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law), 1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot), 1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned), 1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles), 1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep) |
#238
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FYI
Quote:
Typically, due to swelling/distortion all three are trying to occur at the same time. Oil starvation can be difficult to diagnose, until it is to late. The only thing that might have saved him is a screaming Low oil pressure alarm. Low oil pressure alarm. .
__________________
ASE Master Mechanic asemastermechanic@juno.com Prototype R&D/testing: Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician. Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). Dynamometer. Heat exchanger durability. HV-A/C Climate Control. Vehicle build. Fleet Durability Technical Quality Auditor. Automotive Technical Writer 1985 300SD 1983 300D 1984 190D 2003 Volvo V70 2002 Honda Civic https://www.boldegoist.com/ |
#239
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What I have learned from this thread is that I really need to make a skid plate under the engine sump. Skid Plate? 300D
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85 Merc 300D - Unwinding 31 years of wear 86 VW TD Mahindra Diesel Iseki Diesel In 2007 I didn't own a diesel. |
#240
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Quote:
__________________
All Diesel Fleet 1985 R107 300SLD TURBODIESEL 2005 E320 CDI (daily) LOTS of parts for sale! EGR block kit http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/355250-sale-egr-delete-block-off-plate-kit.html 1985 CA emissions 617 owners- You Need This! Sanden style A/C Compressor Mounting Kit for your 616/ 617 For Sale + Install Inst. Sanden Instalation Guide (post 11): http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/367883-sanden-retrofit-installation-guide.html |
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