Alternate Diesel/ powertrain swaps. - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

daw_two · #76 12-11-2013, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

This is decent advice.

In an ideal world, I'd have gone with the 4BT myself. Here in the real world, I went with the 617 for cost reasons. The 4BT alone would also have cost more than I spent on this entire project - truck, engine, adapter, odds and ends, etc. The 4BT would have required regearing, and likely a significantly upgraded drivetrain. The 617 used the stock drivetrain and the RPM range is close enough that stock gearing has been fine too.

If you're happy with a four cylinder in your truck, you'll be just fine with the power and torque of the 617. That said, I do really wish my transmission had a granny low gear.

Regarding the cost....really? I bought my first 4BT in a stepvan for less than some w123 parts cars are listed on this forum. Granted, the stepvan was being used for parts and the engine was missing the power steering pump and the alternator. The engine was fine though.

I installed a power steering pump, alternator, and AC compressor and put it in my 2000 Dakota, 4x4, Crew Cab. I swapped the transmission to a 47RE. Almost everything in my swap project is a STOCK item --- go to NAPA, Dodge dealer, or Cummins dealer and buy it. The exceptions are: customized intercooler, motor & transmission frame mount modifications, remote oil filter, and a few wiring mods.

Here's the link to my build thread: http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?13079-4BT-into-a-Dakota
and
I'd be more than happy to answer any questions anyone has about it --- shoot me a PM with your telephone number or email me with your telephone number; and include the best time to call. I love meeting new forum members, talking diesel stuff, hearing about projects, etc.

I've very pleased with my 4BT swap even though the 25mpg is a bit lower than I wanted it sure beats the 14-16mpg the 4.7 liter gas engine delivered. I've pulled a car trailer with a w123, 300D on it with no problems.

rscurtis · #77 12-11-2013, 10:27 AM

In the late '70's, I repowered an International PU with a 3-53 Detroit and a Clarke 5-speed OD transmission. At only 105 HP, it's torque band was too narrow for the available gearing. I sold it for $7200, which was almost $3K more than it cost new.

Next, I repowered a '77 Blazer with a 5-cylinder Deutz 912 engine. While only 3 more horsepower, it was much more drivable, even with only a 4-speed transmission. Both were 2800 RPM engines.

Doing this today is a great education, but what you end up with is not near as good as what you can buy.

JB3 · #78 12-11-2013, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis

In the late '70's, I repowered an International PU with a 3-53 Detroit and a Clarke 5-speed OD transmission. At only 105 HP, it's torque band was too narrow for the available gearing. I sold it for $7200, which was almost $3K more than it cost new.

Next, I repowered a '77 Blazer with a 5-cylinder Deutz 912 engine. While only 3 more horsepower, it was much more drivable, even with only a 4-speed transmission. Both were 2800 RPM engines.

Doing this today is a great education, but what you end up with is not near as good as what you can buy.

I think that depends almost entirely on gearing and starting weight honestly and if you can change it. When I first repowered my van with a 616. I had inappropriate rear gearing for it, despite a good ratio 5-speed OD that matched the motor. The rear end was a 3.31.

The van was hard to move in 1st, and could not pull OD. Had I called it a day at that point, I would have said that it wasn't a feasible swap, but I kept going back the the fact that MB itself powered the TN vans with an OM616 and they were a lot larger than my GM minivan, so I changed the diff to a 4.56, (still short of the TN 5+ gears), and it came alive as usable. Could pull 5th, could keep up with traffic, and so on, could even tow limited size trailers.

Given how many of the 617 engines are in jeeps and other off road vehicles with success, I think you are selling short the positive result of a mercedes diesel repower based on what turned out to be lukewarm experiences for you (although highly interesting sounding swaps). Plus you started out with a heavy (really heavy 70s designs) full size pickup in one swap, and in the other a pickup based SUV, and installed motors that both generate less HP than a 617. Imagine both those engines in something as small and light as a nissan HB or a commanche.

I will say honestly that I like the 616 that was in my van better than the GM 4.3 V6 that I replaced (maybe mostly related to it being a manual, but still it was a positive change). Im going to like my re-repower to a 617 even more. Im leaving the low range rear end in order to be able to tow

vstech · #79 12-11-2013, 11:40 AM

... I would love to put a 602 turbo into something small and light... like a Datsun 280Z...
and coinkidinkaly, I've got both a spare 602, AND a Datsun 280z with a bad head gasket...

Hmmmm

rscurtis · #80 12-11-2013, 11:41 AM

and installed motors that both generate less HP than a 617.

True. How much HP does a 617 develop from 1800-2800 RPM, a normal driving range? The answer is not very much.

Here are some pictures of the Deutz about 12 years after I did the conversion. During the era of the 55 MPH speed limit, it would do 33 MPG on the road.

vstech · #81 12-11-2013, 11:41 AM

I'd also like to shoehorn a GM6.5TD into my 67 firebird...

JB3 · #82 12-11-2013, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis

and installed motors that both generate less HP than a 617.

True. How much HP does a 617 develop from 1800-2800 RPM, a normal driving range? The answer is not very much.

Here are some pictures of the Deutz about 12 years after I did the conversion. During the era of the 55 MPH speed limit, it would do 33 MPG on the road.

looks awesome, and looks like a really clean stock looking job!
Whats the story with that fan on the passenger side? Looks like some kind of huge exhaust fan, almost like a air cooled setup even

Concerning driving RPM, I have mine currently rigged up where to travel 65 mph, the engine is turning approx 3100-3200 rpm in OD, close to MB stock RPMs for the same speed, but with an extra gear to get up to it in my conversion.

The result has been good, where it falls flat is steep hills with the 616, but im excited to see how the 617 does with the same gearing and twice the hp.

The result compared to a stock MB is a vehicle that is only slightly slower off the line than a automatic 240, and has much shorter gear changes getting up to a limited top speed, but a limited top speed thats also right in the best torque range of the motor for the most part, so it will maintain well, just like a stock 240 wound out to 3 grand

JB3 · #83 12-11-2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

I'd also like to shoehorn a GM6.5TD into my 67 firebird...

you will enjoy this if you haven't seen it before. a claimed 40mpg diesel corvette with a 6.5 in it.

Corvette V8 diesel conversion - 40 mpg (US) avg. - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

OM617YOTA · #84 12-11-2013, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daw_two

Regarding the cost....really? I bought my first 4BT in a stepvan for less than some w123 parts cars are listed on this forum.

Absolutely. 4BT's around here are $3-4000. I paid $600 for my 617.

rscurtis · #85 12-11-2013, 02:05 PM

almost like a air cooled setup even

It was air-cooled. In the bottom of the first photo you can see the ignition coil and the reservoir for the Webasto heater supplied for cab heat. I raised the body an inch off the chassis so everything would fit.

Walkenvol · #86 12-11-2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis

How much HP does a 617 develop from 1800-2800 RPM, a normal driving range?

This is the flaw in your argument against the OM617 repower. Normal rpm range is different between engine designs. OM617's are designed to run at a higher rpm range than 4BT's. The 4BT is more comfortable at a lower rpm than most gasoline motors requiring a regearing of the repowered vehicle. An OM617 spins closer to or slightly higher than the average gasoline motor. Jeeps and small trucks with 4 cylinders are geared pretty close to what fits an OM617 well.

JB3 · #87 12-11-2013, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

Absolutely. 4BT's around here are $3-4000. I paid $600 for my 617.

same here, 4BT's have a heck of a price tag, plus you have to deal with a bread truck if you get it in a source vehicle, which could be a major problem depending on available space. I could stash an old MB at a time, but not a truck

OM617YOTA · #88 12-11-2013, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

same here, 4BT's have a heck of a price tag, plus you have to deal with a bread truck if you get it in a source vehicle, which could be a major problem depending on available space. I could stash an old MB at a time, but not a truck

Yup, between the cost difference and the compatible RPM, the 617 was an easy choice. It has the same HP as the 4 cylinder that was available in my truck, and the same torque as the V6 that was available in my truck. It's no low-down torque monster, but I don't imagine the stock gas engines were either.

rscurtis · #89 12-11-2013, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

same here, 4BT's have a heck of a price tag, plus you have to deal with a bread truck if you get it in a source vehicle, which could be a major problem depending on available space. I could stash an old MB at a time, but not a truck

You should have seen the price tag on that Deutz, which was an EPA certified engine. It was $7700 in 1981, but included the Webasto heater, bell housing, engine mounts, and the Borg Warner T19A truck transmission. Deutz was in the repower business back then in a big way.

daw_two · #90 12-11-2013, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

Absolutely. 4BT's around here are $3-4000. I paid $600 for my 617.

WOW!!! Maybe I should raise my prices??? Here's my inventory and prices:

One VE pumped 4BT still attached to stepvan frame (cut) currently has Ford adapter, flywheel, starter, starter spacer, clutch, bell housing, etc. $2300. I can remove the Ford stuff and sell the engine for $1800

One P pumped 4BT comes with radiator, intercooler, air filter, still attached to stepvan frame (cut) for $3,000; includes Eaton adapter, flywheel, starter.

Another P pumped 4BT like above without an engine tag for $2500