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  #1  
Old 04-16-2013, 02:34 PM
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OM606 re-timing of injection pump: diesel fuel in engine oil

Fellas,
I posted on here a bit ago regarding my engine stalling out when the brakes were applied and it starting hard. OM606 stalling after brakes applied
My original indy mechanics doing the work told me that there was nothing else they could do with the car and that I should have it sent to the dealer. The dealer called me back today and said that the timing chain didn't jump and that its fine. However, they said that the injection pump must be "retimed" when the timing chain is replaced. They said they found diesel fuel in the engine oil.
Is this correct? I figured since it was an electronic pump that the computer would just reset itself to the correct timing. What am I missing?
This is going to cost me $2700.

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Ed
-1984 Mercedes 190D 2.2 5-speed gray market(bought@30,000 miles) (Sold back to original owner@170,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes E300DT (245,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes S500 Grand Edition (80,000 miles)
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  #2  
Old 04-16-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdzBenz View Post
Fellas,
I posted on here a bit ago regarding my engine stalling out when the brakes were applied and it starting hard. OM606 stalling after brakes applied
My original indy mechanics doing the work told me that there was nothing else they could do with the car and that I should have it sent to the dealer. The dealer called me back today and said that the timing chain didn't jump and that its fine. However, they said that the injection pump must be "retimed" when the timing chain is replaced. They said they found diesel fuel in the engine oil.
Is this correct? I figured since it was an electronic pump that the computer would just reset itself to the correct timing. What am I missing?
This is going to cost me $2700.
Guessing they want to send the pump out to Bosch to be re-calibrated? Usually about $1k. I wouldnt let them unless someone has had the pump apart and was messing with it.

Dealer ought to have an electronic timing tool to help adjust actual timing when pump is reinstalled. Drip works too.
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09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)
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  #3  
Old 04-16-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMAllison View Post
Guessing they want to send the pump out to Bosch to be re-calibrated? Usually about $1k. I wouldnt let them unless someone has had the pump apart and was messing with it.

Dealer ought to have an electronic timing tool to help adjust actual timing when pump is reinstalled. Drip works too.
My understanding is that the pump has not been apart at all. They told me the pump is 180 degrees off of where it should be.
Does the electronic timing tool require the pump to be taken off the engine? They told me in order to reset the timing that the pump has to be taken off This is why there is a need for the "rebuild kit". The rebuild kit consists of a few gaskets that need to be replaced when the pump is reinstalled.
I don't think they intend to take the pump apart.
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Ed
-1984 Mercedes 190D 2.2 5-speed gray market(bought@30,000 miles) (Sold back to original owner@170,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes E300DT (245,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes S500 Grand Edition (80,000 miles)
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2013, 05:47 PM
compress ignite's Avatar
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Me ?

I'd show up Tomorrow Morning with a Private "Roll Back" and get the MB out
of their hands.

Unless somebody can explain how the I.P. "Got" mistimed by 180 Degrees (???)
[Ain't possible] (AND the Engine RAN?)

2700 USD is a LOT more Banditry than just simply sending a Pump back to Bosch.

ZomeZing don't add up !

They've sent the Engine Oil off for an Analysis? (And they volunteered the Results entered on the R.O. IN PRINT?)
[RO s are legal documents with your VIN (which references the I.P.'s serial No.). So ,if Zomeone has "Fudged" the
Analysis they're not only fools,but self admitted Criminals.]

I'll agree with TMA ...Unless someone has "Been Into" the I.P. there should be no need @ that mileage to send it
back to Bosch for the "Can of Worms".
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Last edited by compress ignite; 04-16-2013 at 06:35 PM.
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  #5  
Old 04-16-2013, 08:41 PM
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My questions/observations:

1. If the pump was never re-timed to compensate for the stretch in the timing chain, it shouldn't have to be re-timed with a new chain unless someone for some reason pulled the pump to replace the chain.
2. How in the world do they know there's diesel fuel in the oil? Did they send it out for analysis of some sort?
3. There's one big O ring on the front of the pump that MAY have to be replaced if the pump is removed. I replaced the one on mine, easy as pie.
4. If you really have to get the pump rebuilt, I'd look into performance elements. I'd suspect that an aftermarket rebuild with performance elements would be cheaper than a factory job and the shop that does it will be someone who's an enthusiast, not just a lackey.
5. Did the hard starting and whatnot start after the chain was replaced?

Oh, and the only thing electronic about the pump is the rack. Timing is as mechanical as mechanical can be. The computer algorithm is pretty straight forward. It looks at intake air temp, RPM, MAP and throttle position and then makes a decision about how much rack it will give you and not generate an inordinate amount of smoke.
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  #6  
Old 04-16-2013, 08:50 PM
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It's not really helpful... but you have the exact clone of my car. same color. almost the same mileage
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  #7  
Old 04-16-2013, 09:47 PM
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In the pic of the Fuel Supply/Lfit Pump #1 is a little O-ring. If that leaks bad enough it is possible for Fuel to get out and into the Oil.

I do not know what the New Engines look like. But, someone with a Newer Engine had their Fuel Return leaking and the Way the Injectors were installed through the Valve Cover with some sort of Tube with Seals on it the Fuel Return leak was pooling in the Tubes and leaking past the old Seals on the Tubes and into the Engine.
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OM606 re-timing of injection pump: diesel fuel in engine oil-new-style-lift-pump-apr-13.jpg  
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  #8  
Old 04-17-2013, 08:38 AM
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The twenty seven hundred is for what exactly? Yes the pump could be out 180 degrees if whoever changed the chain was doing something else at the same time.

Your description is reading very bad. I doubt they would spot diesel oil in the base oil easily. You have to be careful here as twenty seven hundred dollars may not be the total bill you are facing there either.

If the engine smoked a lot and had very little power would be an indication the injection pump was 180 degrees out. These cars can run at 180 degrees out but only poorly with smoking involved. Hard starting would be another charactaristic.

If the car ran well before the chain change and never well afterwords the pump out of time is a decent possibility. Still it costs nowhere near 2700 to retime it. I think more information should be posted by you. With what is posted it sounds like whoever changed the timing chain just did not know enough is a real possibility. The original chain did not break did it? I am also suspecting they may have got part of the diagnosis right but 2700? You really need some answers.

You did check around about the dealers ethics on service before taking your car there? No previous reputation on being competant and fair when it comes to their work and billing is always a sign to stay well away.

Last edited by barry12345; 04-17-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2013, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarTek View Post
My questions/observations:

1. If the pump was never re-timed to compensate for the stretch in the timing chain, it shouldn't have to be re-timed with a new chain unless someone for some reason pulled the pump to replace the chain.
2. How in the world do they know there's diesel fuel in the oil? Did they send it out for analysis of some sort?
3. There's one big O ring on the front of the pump that MAY have to be replaced if the pump is removed. I replaced the one on mine, easy as pie.
4. If you really have to get the pump rebuilt, I'd look into performance elements. I'd suspect that an aftermarket rebuild with performance elements would be cheaper than a factory job and the shop that does it will be someone who's an enthusiast, not just a lackey.
5. Did the hard starting and whatnot start after the chain was replaced?

Oh, and the only thing electronic about the pump is the rack. Timing is as mechanical as mechanical can be. The computer algorithm is pretty straight forward. It looks at intake air temp, RPM, MAP and throttle position and then makes a decision about how much rack it will give you and not generate an inordinate amount of smoke.
1. I honestly don't know if the pump was pulled. The chain was replaced by my indy, then my indy fired the mechanic, and another mechanic took on the job.
2. I didn't ask that specific question. I guess I should ask the service manager about that. I guess I assumed it would be evident due to separation of fluids upon draining the engine oil into a pan.
5. The hard starting began after the chain was replaced.
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-1984 Mercedes 190D 2.2 5-speed gray market(bought@30,000 miles) (Sold back to original owner@170,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes E300DT (245,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes S500 Grand Edition (80,000 miles)
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  #10  
Old 04-17-2013, 12:39 PM
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Sorry the description wasn't that extensive. My indy's mechanic that did the work was fired, and a new guy was brought on after the chain had been replaced. My indy wasn't able to give me a lot of information as to what was touched, and not touched on the engine. Needless to say that makes me very pissed. The dealer wouldn't even touch my car when it was towed to them. They said they had no desire to get into someone else's work that wasn't completed. They said diagnosis was going to be 1200 because they were going to take the engine down to expose the timing chain and ensure whoever installed it didn't screw up. Then begin diagnosing the problem from there.
The service manager did indicate that 2700 will be everything I pay out the door. That includes the oil change, fixing the hard starting, and ensuring the engine and injection is timed properly.
The engine ran well before the timing chain change. The timing chain didn't break before the change. It was 4 degrees off and I wanted it changed before I hit 5 degrees which is when it needs to be changed.
I've been to this dealer before and they are the better ones in Chicago. The others are even more expensive based on the various service quotes I have received.
What would cause the injection pump timing to be off so badly? Could it have been something that my indy mechanic did while replacing the timing chain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
The twenty seven hundred is for what exactly? Yes the pump could be out 180 degrees if whoever changed the chain was doing something else at the same time.

Your description is reading very bad. I doubt they would spot diesel oil in the base oil easily. You have to be careful here as twenty seven hundred dollars may not be the total bill you are facing there either.

If the engine smoked a lot and had very little power would be an indication the injection pump was 180 degrees out. These cars can run at 180 degrees out but only poorly with smoking involved. Hard starting would be another charactaristic.

If the car ran well before the chain change and never well afterwords the pump out of time is a decent possibility. Still it costs nowhere near 2700 to retime it. I think more information should be posted by you. With what is posted it sounds like whoever changed the timing chain just did not know enough is a real possibility. The original chain did not break did it? I am also suspecting they may have got part of the diagnosis right but 2700? You really need some answers.

You did check around about the dealers ethics on service before taking your car there? No previous reputation on being competant and fair when it comes to their work and billing is always a sign to stay well away.
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-1984 Mercedes 190D 2.2 5-speed gray market(bought@30,000 miles) (Sold back to original owner@170,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes E300DT (245,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes S500 Grand Edition (80,000 miles)
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  #11  
Old 04-17-2013, 01:32 PM
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firstly I cannot fathom the engine starting with the pump timed upside down. What you need is to get your indy or someone competent enough that works on these older benz to time and check the engine properly. With a new chain in place aligning the marks on the crank and cam are easy - the pump should then be timed to exact 15 degrees ATDC with new O ring on its face and timing lock in pump. Use a squeezy bleeder to prime the system and the rig should fire up.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:33 PM
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"Sorry the description wasn't that extensive. My indy's mechanic that did the work was fired, and a new guy was brought on after the chain had been replaced. My indy wasn't able to give me a lot of information as to what was touched, and not touched on the engine. Needless to say that makes me very pissed."

Please don't think I am being harsh, but let me get this straight. You bring a good running car into your "indy" to have preventative maintenance done i.e. Replace the timing chain. Your "indys" mechanic gets fired for some unknown reason after working on you car, and your "indy" has no idea what was done. Does this "indy" of yours work under a shade tree in the back yard?? It is his responsibility, as the owner of the shop, to make sure he knows what took place, and to make things right if "his" mechanic screwed up. It was his RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that when this "new guy" took over that the work the other "fired mechanic" did was done properly before giving you back your vehicle. What you should have done in the first place was to tell your "indy" that his story was a bunch of BULL, and if the car was not returned to you in the same running condition as when it was first brought in that you LAWYER would be the next person that he would be hearing from!!
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  #13  
Old 04-17-2013, 01:37 PM
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It's always been my understanding that you can unhitch the link in the chain and attach the new chain to the old one and drag it through the engine by turning the crank with a wrench. If the mech. didn't know or do this, I suppose the pump could have been removed at some point. If it wasn't put back on properly, it could be severely retarded and will hardly run. I did this myself by accident when I pulled the pump on my car and put it back a couple teeth off. The engine would run but it sure didn't want to.

It's not hard to pull the pump and relocate it to the proper spot, it's just time consuming. You'll need the IP lock tool to keep the pump in place when it's off the car. If the mech. didn't have this tool and just trusted the pump to stay, it's very possible the pump shaft slipped when it was being re-inserted into the drive sprocket.

There's a few easy steps to determining if the timing is correct if you can get the car back but it involves removing the intake manifold.
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Benz Fleet:
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1998 E300
2008 E63


Non-Benz Fleet:
1992 Aerostar
1993 MR2
2000 F250
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2013, 02:53 PM
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You're not being harsh at all. The detail here is that the car had been originally towed to my indy. Why? Because my SOV failed and when I came back to my garage the car was in a pool of diesel fuel. Needless to say I didn't drive the car up to my indy, rather, I had it towed there. Their mistake was replacing the timing chain prior to fixing the fuel leak. My indy is telling me that because the car wasn't running at the time that they have no idea what could be wrong with it. I know that my car ran perfectly prior to going to the indy. It just had a fuel leak and I decided to get the timing chain replaced while the intake manifold was going to have to come off anyway. A good friend of mine owns the shop and he has been very communicative. I'm sure I will get this resolved with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pimpernell View Post
"Sorry the description wasn't that extensive. My indy's mechanic that did the work was fired, and a new guy was brought on after the chain had been replaced. My indy wasn't able to give me a lot of information as to what was touched, and not touched on the engine. Needless to say that makes me very pissed."

Please don't think I am being harsh, but let me get this straight. You bring a good running car into your "indy" to have preventative maintenance done i.e. Replace the timing chain. Your "indys" mechanic gets fired for some unknown reason after working on you car, and your "indy" has no idea what was done. Does this "indy" of yours work under a shade tree in the back yard?? It is his responsibility, as the owner of the shop, to make sure he knows what took place, and to make things right if "his" mechanic screwed up. It was his RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that when this "new guy" took over that the work the other "fired mechanic" did was done properly before giving you back your vehicle. What you should have done in the first place was to tell your "indy" that his story was a bunch of BULL, and if the car was not returned to you in the same running condition as when it was first brought in that you LAWYER would be the next person that he would be hearing from!!
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-1984 Mercedes 190D 2.2 5-speed gray market(bought@30,000 miles) (Sold back to original owner@170,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes E300DT (245,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes S500 Grand Edition (80,000 miles)
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  #15  
Old 04-17-2013, 02:56 PM
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That's really good info KarTek. The mechanic called me to say that my replacement chain was "too long" while he was replacing it. I suggested that he count the links on the original one and feed through with it. It sounds like from my conversation with him that he didn't do this the first time. Or, that he removed the IP looking for a fuel leak and it didn't get put back properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarTek View Post
It's always been my understanding that you can unhitch the link in the chain and attach the new chain to the old one and drag it through the engine by turning the crank with a wrench. If the mech. didn't know or do this, I suppose the pump could have been removed at some point. If it wasn't put back on properly, it could be severely retarded and will hardly run. I did this myself by accident when I pulled the pump on my car and put it back a couple teeth off. The engine would run but it sure didn't want to.

It's not hard to pull the pump and relocate it to the proper spot, it's just time consuming. You'll need the IP lock tool to keep the pump in place when it's off the car. If the mech. didn't have this tool and just trusted the pump to stay, it's very possible the pump shaft slipped when it was being re-inserted into the drive sprocket.

There's a few easy steps to determining if the timing is correct if you can get the car back but it involves removing the intake manifold.

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-1984 Mercedes 190D 2.2 5-speed gray market(bought@30,000 miles) (Sold back to original owner@170,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes E300DT (245,000 miles)
-1999 Mercedes S500 Grand Edition (80,000 miles)
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