1987 190d 2.5 turbo front end shake around 60mph. Any ideas?
 

since i bought my 190dt it has slowly been showing its true nature. the new problem is that it will occasionally shake very violently at highway speeds. (the speedo doesn't work so i cant tell exact speed. +2500rpm in 4th gear auto.) the sake is not always there.

It first happened a few hours after i got some used tires. as soon as it happened i stopped the car and checked all the lug nuts. at this time the shaking went away.

A few weeks later I did the front brakes. As soon as i jumped on the freeway the shaking was back with a vengeance. Ever since this day the shaking has been more frequent and the car always feels a little "squirly" on the freeway.

just so you know. the first thing i am goin to try is to replace the rubber strut mounts. the ones in the car are very cracked and worn out. after that i think i will get a set of used wheels from a local junker. the wheels on the car are not atock and have alot of curb rash.

I would like to blame alignment or bent rim but the fact that is doesnt happen all the time has me doubting that.

any ideas?

strut mount pics
 

ok s i just went out to take some pics and realized just how bad the strut mounts are. the new ones are on order but in the meantime this car will stay parked. I will have to break out my old reliable "Daisy" 240d. :)

http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...4-19125737.jpg

http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...4-19125746.jpg

ok. i replaced the strut mounts and had the wheels checked for balance and bends. still not fixed. :(

on payday i will be buying new tie rods and idles arm rebuild kit.

One or both bottom ball-joints will have excess play.

If I had your problem and I didn't know the ball joints were recently replaced I would start there with new Lemforder (sp?) or genuine Mercedes replacements. Next, I would pull the car over a ditch such that I could lay down under it with a flashlight without the car running. Have a friend sit inside and slowly move the steering wheel back and forth. Observe all the steering components for play starting with the rag joint where the steering wheel shaft connects with the steering gear box. There are 8-10 moving spots that can be worn and require R&R. No need to replace them all unless they are bad. Do a search on the forum about which mfgrs to avoid as some folks have experienced some poor results from specific companies.

The violent death shake is mostly caused by extremely worn ball joints and distorted tires. New Lemforder brand parts (who are also OEM to MB) are very rightly priced about 20 per side, but its quite a chore to install if you dont have a proper press. Dont choose any other brand or you may expereince a bad accident. The ball joints on a W201 and W124 are under tension at all times

I replaced the joints on my car - and here is a thread for it.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/335259-w124-ball-joint-press.html

I agree with the diagnosis...had similar shimmy on my car a year ago. Definitely go with the factory ball joints. You also might want to replace the steering damper as well.

Old Tires + worn suspension parts
 

It's the older tires (poorly worn due to worn suspension) that initially set the wobble into action. You can put new tires on + maybe a new steering shock to help mellow out the effect of worn suspension parts for a quick short term remedy.

But without a suspension refresh i.e. ball joints, the tires will soon begin to shape like your old tires and the death wobble will return before you know it.

So as you know the suspension parts mentioned by other members need to be refreshed and you're going to need new tires afterward to complete the fix.

I've temporarily "cured" the death wobble with new tires & new steering shock only to wreck the tires (nice michellins) within 10,000 miles and having the wobble start up again.

I have paper work saying that the ball joints were replaced two years ago. (But that doesn't rule it out in my mind because I don't know what brand they used.) The paper work says the p.o. had a balance joint completely fail. (Terrifying thought) the boots on my ball joints are not torn.

I have scheduled an appointment with a trusted mechanic/ family friend to have a full inspection done on the front and rear suspension and driveline. Since I scheduled it through his shop it is going to cost me 40$. I fell it well worth it. I don't want to start throwing money at it with out a better idea of what I'm getting into.

I really hope its not ball joints. :( I just have the ball joints done on my previous 190d before I traded it for this one. If it is the ball joints I think I will invest the money into a Merc spring puller and do them my self.

Thabk you for all the responses BTW. :)

Don't need to pull the springs to change the ball joints.

X2
 

X2 on tires (or at least swap for rear tires after ball j. change)

.

clean the ball joint boots and look carefully if they are black rubber ones they are not lemforder joints, lemforder joints (which is the ONLY joint one should use in these cars) have white plastic boots.

If the joints are not lemforder you can be assured they are worn out in 2 years. - use a large channel locks to check for up down play - you are supposed to hook the pliers on the bolt and the ear on the joint boss in the arm, squeeze hard - if you see it move even a hair your joint is shot.

I took it in to a friends shop. He did an inspection knowing that I would be doing the repair myself. Also let me watch and showed me all the worn parts.

He said he would bet the tie rods where the problem. The driver outer had lots of play and was after market. The passanger inner had a little play but was Mercedes. Also the rear lower control arm bushing has a lot of play. The center link was good. He recommended steering dampener and struts based on age. The ball joints are good. He said he gave them hell. White boot in perfect shape.

After I left I went to a local junk yard and pulled both tie rods off a 90's 190e. The tie rods had good boots and were very tight. They are Mercedes branded. The swap was a nightmare because the aftermatket tierod was not pressed in properly and did not have the hex socket like the Mercedes one. I had to cut the end off the bolt to get it out.

Point is. New strut mounts, tires checked and swapped, newish tierods and the shake is still their. It seems less severe and frequent but its there none the less.

I don't know what kind of reputation Kent Bergsma has around here, but i found this video on youtube very helpful in understanding where different components are and how to test them. I am guessing since you already replaced some parts, you know how they are connected to each other. But, it never hurts to have another look and see if you missed something ... check out the video i linked at the bottom.

Front Suspension Component Location & Troubleshooting on a Mercedes Benz 126 Chassis - YouTube

OK so the problem still persists. I've been slowly replacing all the from end parts with know good brands.

Parts I've replaced.
_strut mounts
_tie rods (used known good)
_ball joints
_lower control arm bushings
_drive line center support
_all four rear rear stabilizing arms.

In addition to this I measured and straightened the frame. All measurements are now within spec by 1mm.

Every repair so far has made the car more stable, smoother and handle a lot better. The steering is a lot tights after control arm build and the rear end no longer twists on accel.

But the problem still remains. At around 55mph the car has a noticeable yet subtle shake that vocationally turns into a very violent shake.

My thought now is that it is either the center steering link, idler arm, or struts. All of these seem fine. BTW.

Any ideas?

it's the tires. I had the exact problem and replaced pretty much everything except the tires. changed the tires and the problem went away. it turned out to be bad belts.

Drive faster.

X2 on tires/wheels. they can be very nefarious. Check for uneven tread wear, bulging, etc. Check to see if there are marks left behind by missing wheel weights (some may have fallen off). If the tires have >50% wear left and look to be in good shape, I might try a wheel balance first.

You can swap one front and back wheel to see if the vibration changes significantly -- if it becomes less violent, the problem wheel/tire is the one moved to the rear. If it becomes more violent, the problem wheel/tire is the one moved to the front. If no change is observed, try swapping the other side instead. If still nothing changes then maybe the problem is elsewhere.

Incidentally, even if you find a problem wheel/tire on your first try, I would still swap the other side to make sure that it isn't contributing to the problem. Unless you just want to replace tires in pairs.

"It first happened a few hours after i got some used tires."
"the wheels on the car are not stock and have alot of curb rash."

Time to bite the bullet and get some decent wheels and NEW tires!

Happy Motoring, Mark

+1 Tires. Also, change the steering shock.

I know the op already did balljoints but I got some lemfoerder balljoints for a 124 from pelican last month that had black boots.

I'm sorry. I forgot to list wheels and tires. The previous owner had over sized wheels on the car when I bought it. Once the shaking started I replaced the wheels and tires with a used set of stock wheels and new tires. I also had the new wheels checked and they are not bent.

Ball joints are a red herring. They don't explain this sort of vibration. Usually, they just let go without warning. If there's vibration at all, it will be random and at lower speeds.

A vibration around 60 mph is nearly always wheel or drivetrain related. Did you say this is a 190DT? If so, check the space between the front swaybar and the oil pan. there should be at least 1/4 inch of clear air. If the engine mounts are bad, the engine will settle down onto the sway bar, and you will have not-good vibrations. It seems to be a problem unique to 190D 2.5's.

Yes it is the 2.5 turbo. I will check the sway bars. I have been considering that it might be motor mounts. I am not exactly sure how to check the mounts on the om602. All my other cars are w123's and those mounts are easy to diagnose.

I bought a new trans mount aswell but I don't have a wrench that will clear the top bolt and flex disc.

New steering damper should be next, and you should also consider replacing the bushings in the idler arm.

Do you feel the shaking in the steering wheel, or is the car shaking?

If the whole car, then perhaps the drive shaft bearing support, or a flex disc is the culprit.

I told you how...measure the clearance between the sway bar and the oil pan. Should be at least 1/4". When the mounts collapse, the pan will be resting on the sway bar.

ok so while I was under the car yet again I checked the sway bar clearance. It is right at 1/4 inch. While under there I had the misses shake the wheel at 3 and 9. There is visible play in the idler arm and pitman/steering box.

I checked the front tires and the front right had uneven wear so i swapped the spare into its place. the shaking seemed to settle for the day. Only to come back with a vengeance the next.

I ordered a new set of struts and an idler arm rebuild kit (lemforder). I have suspected the idler arm since day one but when I had the car checked out they said the idler arm was fine.

I also got a set of offset wrenches so I can do the trans mount.

The struts set me back a bit so i will have to wait until payday to order a new steering damper. Can anyone recommend a good brand for the damper. I've seen a lot of meyle online. I saw one site had Sachs. I was thinking about going with that. i couldn't seem to find Bilstein damper for the w201.

I will report back after i rebuild the idler arm.

The struts and idler arm are a big improvement in the over all driving but they did not fix the problem.

The good news is that while the shake is still present it has changed a little. After installing new struts the front end feels a lot tighter and the shake has seamed to more to the center console instead of the entire front end.

I figured it was time to swap out the trans mount and while under there I took a good look around and I think I found the problem.

http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...315_161443.jpg

Flex disc. The rear flex disc looks perfect while front not so much. All 3 of the bolts that mount the disc to the trans look like the pictures. I'm considering parking her until the new disc get here. I've hear flex disc horrors and actually had the drive line drop out of my 300td the day after I bought it because the flexdisc bolts fell out.

That was going to be my suggestion ... very good you caught it now and not when it gives, like my 240D's did (fortunately at low speed but still a mess)!

Yes, that would cause the problem! Once corrected, with all the rest of the corrective work you've done, the car should ride like new...

Make sure you mark the two halves of the drive shaft where they join in the middle, so you can get the orientation the same. Also mark the front and rear of that bad flex disc, so you know the orientation for the replacement flex disc. I did this exact job on my now-sold '84 190D, and failed to mark the flex disc, and imagine my frustration to find that it DOES have a front and a rear and the FSM did not get any clue for a 190D with five-speed transmission.

In the end I puzzled it out looking at the pictures very carefully, but I lost at least an hour solving that one.

Flex disc didn't fix it and the original shake is back. Ugh.

I did find a crack in the seam sealer around the spring perch while under the car. Upon closer inspection (picking and peeling) I uncovered a crack that goes half ways around the spring perc. Needless to say this is my next repair in this never ending battle.

http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...406_221537.jpg

I know this car had a ball joint fail in the past. So I'm not saying this is a common problem. But since these cars are getting older it might be wise to add this area to the list of places to check every so often.

If this doesn't fix it then I will probably try motor mounts next then move to the rear end.

Another thread either here or different forum/list, MB owner had a high-speed vibration that turned out to be a warped wheel hub. Not easy at all to figure out, but any decent tire/wheel repair shop should be able to check all your hubs and let you know.

If the ball joint failure in the car's past was total failure (i.e. the entire wheel sub-frame left the car) resulting in the driver suddenly becoming a passenger and the car crashing, then a bent/warped hub (or two) may certainly be lurking...

Maybe try driving the car at speed on a multi-lane highway, with a pair of friends driving "wingman". The passenger in the other car should observe all four of your wheels to see if any movement can be detected, then at least you have narrowed the problem down to one or two wheels, or not a wheel problem at all but something in the drive-train, like a out-of-balance drive shaft or a really bad rear axle.

Not the previous owner but the owner before him actually kept good records. The car came with a file dating back 6years. In the paper work there is a receipt that says "urgent ball joint replacement needed before alignment." Followed by a receipt a few weeks later that reads "ball joint replacement. Complete failure!!!." Also, when I got the car the right fender well was somewhat mangled as if the hub fleww out and the strut rod hit the fender. Pretty terrifying.

I'm welding up the perch today. If that doesn't help I am going to do motor mounts, and check the hubs. I will probably replace front discs.

Before...
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...414_144642.jpg

And after...
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...414_171856.jpg

The driver side perch was being held on by 2 tack welds and some seam sealer. I could literally flex the perch with my bare hands. After cleaning everything up we welded up the inside of the perch and patched the outside with new metal. Inside the repair I applied weld through primer and outside 3 coats of catalyzing epoxy primer. When I have time I will redo the seam sealer and chip gaurd.

The car does feel more stable, especially over bumps. While the didn't shake on the 15mile freeway drive home, I am not convinced that my high speed shake is gone. I will still be replacing motor mounts since mine are original. I am hoping that, along with a new set of tires and a 4 wheel alignment will put this in the past.

She has fooled me before.