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#661
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Quote:
Glad that you found a shop - good deal! Dan |
#662
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Took a video of the noise. When coasting down in gear it is MUCH louder and more distinct. Any ideas?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zftig6lNOWE&feature=youtu.be Just realized most of what I've posted on my YT channel has been chasing around engine troubles with this thing. Kind of disheartening.
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617 swapped Toyota Pickup, 22-24 MPG, 50k miles on swap |
#663
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Sounds about like mine. I'm really not hearing anything weird though my ears aren't what they used to be.
Dan |
#664
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Same here, it sounds like all three of the om617s that I've owned. Maybe something around the 16sec mark?
Have you been able to compare to any other running engines in person?
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'85 300D ~ 381k, HD Bilstien shocks, 27.50x8.50x14R General Grabber AT2 tires, 4 E-Code headlight upgrade with 90/130w bulbs, boost turned up, new timing chain, and injectors. SOLD '85 CJ7 ~ OM617 swap, Tarus electric fan, T5 trans, Dana 300, 4.88 R&P, Mile Marker locking hubs, ALDA removed, AMC 20 rear disk brake conversion, Aussie locked with 33's and 5" Rough Country lift. |
#665
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Thanks folks, I appreciate you taking a listen and sharing your opinions. The only 617 I've heard up close was when I met up with Mach4 and his wife. His 617 was MUCH smoother and quieter than mine.
When fully warmed up and coasting down while in gear, it has a pretty good tap to it. One cylinder obviously has something off, frankly it's pretty embarrassing to drive it through my neighborhood like that. I'll have to get a better video. It also has a terrible rattle to it when cold started and at part throttle. Sounds like a gasser pinging horribly. If I cold start and take off, it sounds absolutely horrendous, like the cylinders are full of nuts and bolts. Once it warms up it sounds OK, except when under light throttle or coasting down, that one cylinder tapping pretty good. I have a clear section of tubing on the fuel return line and get no air bubbles out of it at all. Think I'm going to make an appointment with Jan: German Auto Repair & Service | Molalla, OR I've spoken with Jan on the phone, very thick German accent and has worked on MBZ diesels for 40 years. I am very clearly out of my depth, right now I would happily pay a couple hundred bucks for a hands-on expert opinion and guidance on how to proceed.
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617 swapped Toyota Pickup, 22-24 MPG, 50k miles on swap |
#666
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Just throwing this out there, sounds to me like injector nailing.
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All Diesel Fleet 1985 R107 300SLD TURBODIESEL 2005 E320 CDI (daily) LOTS of parts for sale! EGR block kit http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/355250-sale-egr-delete-block-off-plate-kit.html 1985 CA emissions 617 owners- You Need This! Sanden style A/C Compressor Mounting Kit for your 616/ 617 For Sale + Install Inst. Sanden Instalation Guide (post 11): http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/367883-sanden-retrofit-installation-guide.html |
#667
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This thread is up to 45 pages and I've forgotten a good part of the details of your conversion. Can you take the time to review the project so we've got a single post with all of the technical details. I'm interested in documenting in one place what you've used and then some commentary on why you've ruled that component out as a contributing factor. For example, at one time we were kind of focusing in on the adapter kit as a problem and you did a detailed test of runout which seemed to rule that out.
I remember when I made some too stiff motor mounts, the results sent me down several rabbit holes - injectors, timing, etc. Once those were ruled out I got back to the other changes and redid the motor mounts and all is well. I'm hoping there's something easily fixable that's just being missed. Have you closely inspected your prechambers? ....that's all I've got.
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Current Stable
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#668
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Thanks folks, listening to videos of nailing on YT, it does sound like a possibility.
Vibration I'm not too concerned about, unless it turns out to be part of the running issue. Summary: Several months after the swap was complete, I started getting rattling. A ping here or there on a cold start, eventually getting worse and worse and over time, until it was rattling constantly hot or cold. Sounded (sounds) like the worst pinging you've ever heard in a gasser. Generally OK at idle and while under decent amounts of throttle, but part throttle it's BAD, right around when the turbo starts boosting. Looking around, forums seemed to say bad injectors were the culprit, so I had Greazzer pop test(yep shot) and rebuild them. Didn't cure the issue, and Greazzer was kind enough to recheck all his work and balance them to within an extremely tight tolerance. Compression numbers were originally low, in the 290 range, and have come up into the 340 range(and within 10psi across all cylinders) after several thousand miles of driving and several valve adjustments. Installed clear tubing on the fuel pump return line to check for air in the fuel system, yes there was air in the system. Got that sorted out, no air, and didn't seem to make any difference in how it runs. Discovered my fuel system was full of rusty trash, and that local stations have a reputation for having lousy fuel. Replaced rusty fuel system components and upgraded fuel filtration. Rebuilt lift pump, including the teensy O ring that separates engine oil and diesel fuel. Found a short/compressed fuel pressure return spring, and then eventually a broken one. Replaced that with Greazzer's performance overflow spring, which seemed to help. Maddeningly, many of these steps would change something enough that the problems went away and the engine ran great for a LITTLE bit, and then the problems would always come back. Last time I had the injectors out, I verified that the ball pin inside the prechamber was present and in good condition. I haven't pulled the PC's or inspected them with a boroscope. That would be easy enough to do. On previous IP I replaced a couple of the delivery valve seals when they were obviously leaking. Cured the leak but didn't change how the engine ran. This replacement IP I haven't done anything to at all. It's supposed to have 170k fewer miles on it, but no promises that it's in any better condition than the one removed. I've never pulled out a glow plug that had bits and pieces of it missing or any indications of physical damage. Killing a cylinder one at a time by loosening injector lines seems to make the same amount of difference to sound and roughness of running with each cylinder, and each injector line sprays fuel in a pulsed manner when vented. When rev'd, I occasionally get pulses of thick black smoke. At some point, a separate tapping noise when warm started. It's been going on for a couple years, and is getting worse. The noise sounds kind of like a very loud valve tapping. Mostly gone at idle, loud upon light throttle and loudest when coasting down in gear at high RPMs and low fuel flow. Using screwdriver as stethoscope method, I THINK this is in cyl #3. The injector itself sounded the same as the others, but listening on the cylinder head there was difference. Difficult to be sure as I had to listen while revving the engine and hearing it when it coasts down while stationary, which results in a much quieter noise vs when driving. Disconnecting the injector for that cylinder didn't seem to change the noise, which lead me to believe it wasn't injector related. Perhaps I should retest, and swap injectors to verify. I have a spare set off the spare motor, though having been rebuilt by Greazzer my first inclination and assumption is that the injectors are fine. I guess my truck and fuel system could have boogered them since he worked on them, especially with my fuel cleanliness issues above. I get a LOT of blue smoke out the exhaust when I first start after sitting for awhile. I'm wondering if my turbo seals are shot and if it's dumping oil into the engine intake when shut off. That oil is just untimed fuel injection as far as the engine is concerned. Engine uses less than a quart of oil between changes, that's including the drips from a valve cover gasket leak. Whew, I think that's it. Thank you, everyone. We wind up in the same town, first round is on me.
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617 swapped Toyota Pickup, 22-24 MPG, 50k miles on swap |
#669
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You might have a group of problems that you've fixed along the way, and just when one is solved another one pops up providing the same essential symptom and now you're on the second trip around the park.
I'd suggest that you see if you can find a running 617 that you can observe next to yours and hopefully drive. Maybe you're being a bit too critical and it's more normal than it might seem. One idea is to look for someone selling on CraigsList. I'm sure if someone on this forum was in your area they would have chimed in by now...but maybe not. Maybe your fuel supplier is getting questionable fuel....not likely, but if so it might explain some of the symptoms coming and going. If you've got a welder (or know someone with one) it might be worth it to make your own pop tester....it's pretty simple. That way you could pop your own injectors as often as you like to remove them from the equation each time a symptom pops up. (I'll send you an adapter fitting for the injector line to make life easy) Grasping at straws - maybe dump a quart or two of ATF in there to see if anything changes. I'm going to go back to suggesting pulling the prechambers, only because it's not that tough and it's the one thing you haven't definitively checked. Based on how the ones in my "spare" (now junk) engine looked, I could imagine a loose ball making a tapping sound under certain conditions. I've got the collar tool and puller tool if you need those ( or weld up a set when/if you do a pop tester) ...that's all I got Don't give up....you're almost there!
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Current Stable
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#670
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Thank you sir, really appreciate the suggestions.
I'll check around on CL for someone with a 617 for sale, maybe they'll let me test drive it for a couple bucks. I do remember your engine being much smoother and quieter, and definitely without the loud tapping and rattling. There is definitely something wrong with my engine, no doubt about it. My short video posted before didn't come anywhere near catching it. The first several months driving my swap were great, sounded as it should, the past couple years have definitely had something off. I do have a welder, will look into building a pop tester and a PC puller. Thank you!
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617 swapped Toyota Pickup, 22-24 MPG, 50k miles on swap |
#671
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...show you how deep the rabbit hole goes
A couple more pennies you say? Well, after reading/rereading the last couple years' posts I couldn't find/recall any mention of engine condition, provenance, etc and your confidence in such. Did you score a pnp half off deal or was it surgically removed from a one owner running donor after you dd for a month or two? Regardless, the most recent yt sounds quite fine to my untrained ears. You're in the express lane to insane if you insist on judging the health of your engine by comparing how it sounds to the FEW pristine examples out there.
Now, every symptom on your list from Jul15, save for one, points me to bottom end. That one detail being less than a quart between oil changes says not so or, perhaps, early rod knock? Clincher is pronouncement at boost onset and decelerating under load. OCI is 5-6k or so correct? If so, describe the old crankcase oil. One service I've found indespensible is the spectrum analysis of used motor oil. Oracle tier insight for a few dollarydoos. Will certainly make the decision to swap in the next 617a matter of fact. Two items you should focus on completing before further ts'ng is motor mounts and pre-chambers. I have no exp with, thus no useful input on, the topic of pc's. A quick scan will show the gremlin it can be and you've touched almost every other corner in fuel delivery. Forget about tiny bubbles and the impossible goal of vacuum tight seals everywhere. If you don't see wetness on the outside, you're good. Some perspective here, every diesel I've owned and then some have had some nominal amount of air in the lp fuel line. Motor mounts. HUGE! One, it's an oil burner. OEM is the way, Luke. Two, you're putting it somewhere it was not designed to go. Geterdone already. Aside from this, I would suggest you find a way to check timing at your liesure. It's possible with a strobe, though I don't know how economical. I seem to recall sundry auxilliary components sourced from the planet unobtanium and what not. Also, recall a possible failure mode within the tensioning parts that attach the ip to block. I would confirm timing before every ts session. Lastly, this tasty morsel: Toss in a quart (could be less) of two cycle oil with every fillup. Single best thing you'll do to calm the rickety-rackety clickety-clack of that poor engine that is just trying to do it's job. There's a study over on bitog that tests all the blingy high price brand name additives, the old standby's, bio blends and so forth. Placing high was good ol type3 two cycle engine oil. ATF, mentioned earlier here, was included, but didn't fare as well in the study and costs multiples of twostroke oil. Consider it the delicious hydrogravy keeping the fuel system, hp & lp, happy n content. Even spreads its lubricating goodness on into the cylinder and beyond! All for mere pennies. B5 was best bang for buck if readily sourced. Oh, and one more thing... Dispense with the notion that taking it to some mythical "professional" will somehow cure it of its ills. Garaunteed, you know more about that engine than do 95% of the service associates who simply support sales. You're already down this awesome rabbit hole, wanna see one that costs all your money?
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1987 300SDL "Rhona" 218k 1986 300SDL "Johanna" 166k - Abducted 5/15 outta SFV Reward 4 info 1984 300TD "Petra" 212k - Parts yard pirate, arrrrgh 1982 300CD "FrankenFemme" 178k - Eyes only TS-XWRKS transplant abomination (loc. classified) 1980 230CE "Lulu" aka "Terminal" 277k - Dying the slow death 1985 300CD "Gerda" 203k - She ain't playin' SOLD 1983 300TD "Svetlana" 240k...and pleading for more. SOLD "What a heavy load Einstein must've had...F&@%!NG morons everywhere!" - David Lynch |
#672
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Hard to really hear via youtube videos the nailing and errant noise along with engine noise. Try installing a guitar tuner and FFTwave app on your smartphone and monitor the engine sound. These apps are pretty amazing and can measure frequency and spectrum much better than our ears can. Take a video of it and post it. Maybe I'll try it on my engine. +1 for comparing your engine side by side to another 617 in good running order.
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85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now 83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD! 83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked |
#673
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Thanks folks. I'll have to get better video/sound recording of the issues I'm speaking of. If you heard it, you'd have zero doubt that it's not normal at all.
Also keep in mind that the swap drove beautifully for the first several thousand miles, this issue was something that crept up later. I do have some baseline on how it's supposed to sound.
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617 swapped Toyota Pickup, 22-24 MPG, 50k miles on swap |
#674
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Happy Easter, all.
Interesting tidbit. Turned on the glow plugs yesterday while at idle and the engine got muuuuuuch quieter, loud tapping noise went away. Sounded like Mach4's engine. I suspect injection timing and prechambers. Time to bust out the welder and visit a bike shop. |
#675
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Finally cleared enough time to turn some wrenches out in the shop.
Pulled glow plugs, moved engine to 15deg ATDC on #1 compression stroke, yanked IP timing A-B light cover, peeked inside w/ mirror and with my phone camera. Looks like my timing is fine. I was seriously hoping it would be off, because that's an easy fix. While I had the glow plugs out, I stuck a USB micro inspection camera into the prechambers. Comes with a right-angle mirror(which worked a lot better once I discovered + removed the protective film on the mirror.........), but the mirror holder bracket made the inspection camera just baaaaaaaarely too big to fit inside the prechamber, so all I got was straight-in pics. Pic attached of the prechamber ball in #1 cyl, they all looked like that. As far as I can tell #3 has the issue, so was expecting that one to be off if anything. Not like you can tell much from the pics, other than the ball is still there, but still neat. I've collected everything to build a prechamber puller, just need to weld it all up and cut down a socket appropriately. Still collecting parts for my pop tester, got the jack and the gauge. What do you folks use to convert from NPT to the injector hard line connection? Just a delivery valve holder from a junk IP, welded onto an appropriate fitting? If so, anyone have one they'd be willing to sell me?
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617 swapped Toyota Pickup, 22-24 MPG, 50k miles on swap |
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