start design library for parts? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

patbob · #1 10-10-2013, 01:45 AM

Should we start a design library of 3D models for vehicle parts? Now, while there's still lots of examples of them still driving around?

I'm especially thinking of all those little plastic parts that are getting more brittle by the day. Technology is probably already at a point where cost effective replacement parts could be 3D printed for some of them, especially ones that can only be obtained as part of an expensive assembly.

It would also open up the possibility of printing a replacement in a material other than plastic, like metal.

tjts1 · #2 10-10-2013, 02:04 AM

Theres probably a lot of money to be made scanning and printing out of production parts on demand, especially plastic bits. Even if the originals are still availabe you could probably 3D print cheap improver designs.

vstech · #3 10-10-2013, 07:43 AM

like the middle bracket on 126 door pull/armrests... that part is broken on all my cars...

pawoSD · #4 10-10-2013, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

like the middle bracket on 126 door pull/armrests... that part is broken on all my cars...

They fixed that in '86, its all one piece.

martureo · #5 10-10-2013, 09:39 AM

Yes, this is possible. But there needs to be standard file type before it's attempted. Otherwise you'll end up with Solidworks, Pro/E, AutoCAD, Inventor, SpaceClaim,etc at random... and nobody will be able to open all of them easily.

It might be annoying to some of us, but I suggest the standard should be:

.pdf (of the drawing)
.dxf (of the drawing)
.stl (of the solid part)

I think most programs can handle those. And the .pdf should carry enough information for someone to either machine the part or redraw it.

And.... we need someone to host the files.

vstech · #6 10-10-2013, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

They fixed that in '86, its all one piece.

actually, I think they fixed it in late 85, as I've seen 85's with and without the plastic piece.

Graham · #7 10-10-2013, 12:00 PM

Mercedes (or their supplier) no doubt have drawings of each and every part. What would be ideal, would be if they would place parts that are no longer produced into the public domain.

They have started to do this with technical literature by placing it on-line. But from what I have seen their efforts have been kind of poor for a company like Daimler Benz. The W123 manual doesn't really work. The R/C 107 manuals are better, but still far from perfect.

There is really nothing much in it for them to do this, but perhaps they could enlist enthusiast groups to assist.

martureo · #8 10-10-2013, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Mercedes (or their supplier) no doubt have drawings of each and every part. What would be ideal, would be if they would place parts that are no longer produced into the public domain.

They have started to do this with technical literature by placing it on-line. But from what I have seen their efforts have been kind of poor for a company like Daimler Benz. The W123 manual doesn't really work. The R/C 107 manuals are better, but still far from perfect.

There is really nothing much in it for them to do this, but perhaps they could enlist enthusiast groups to assist.

Granted the drawings are proprietary information and might be in an unusable format for enthusiasts. (i.e. Diamler Benz might have their own CAD software)

I think it would be more profitable (and safe) if we were to recreate all the parts ourselves. The slight differences could be safely said to be "aftermarket" and Daimler couldn't come after us. Not that they would for individual parts anyway.

I'm thinking that the 3D printing might not be as profitable as you think either. A decent 3D printer with the strength of parts and variable sizes of parts would run in the $30-50k range. And then you've got to worry about resin, traces, material and maintenance.

Machined metal and plastic parts (abs) would be a better option. And infinitely more feasible for the individual car owner, who could take a print to a machine shop and have it made at their leisure.

Graham · #9 10-10-2013, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

Granted the drawings are proprietary information and might be in an unusable format for enthusiasts. (i.e. Diamler Benz might have their own CAD software)

CAD software may not even have existed when some of our cars were built! Autocad first hit market in about 1983. But somehow I doubt Mercedes would have been using it then. More likely everything was on paper and now stored on microfiche.

bricktron · #10 10-10-2013, 07:47 PM

clandestine file swapping is the only way to go, i believe that mercedes would certainly try to shut down anyone publicly hosting such designs.

martureo · #11 10-10-2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

CAD software may not even have existed when some of our cars were built! Autocad first hit market in about 1983. But somehow I doubt Mercedes would have been using it then. More likely everything was on paper and now stored on microfiche.

Yes, AutoCAD wasn't out at the time, and the w123 was designed pre-1976. But you'd better believe that those files have been transferred over to a electronic format, at least the files in continuous use.

I work as a Mechanical Engineer, and this is part of my job sometimes. I've had to update parts from the 1960s, still in use, but being updated for better manufacturability. The first thing I have to do is to take the old print and create the model, then the drawing... and THEN do the update on the part/assembly.

I've worked with some of the standard programs out there, but I've also worked for one or two companies that designed their own software and file management programs. I seriously doubt that MBZ would let any, ANY proprietary drawing out for the fun of it.

But that being said I don't think they'd have much to go after if it were a bunch of enthusiasts creating parts which either MBZ no longer stocks or MBZ no longer sustains the design for.

patbob · #12 10-11-2013, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

.. you could probably 3D print cheap improver designs.

That's one of the things I was thinking of. Once a design file is available, others could make improvements or derivations from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

Yes, this is possible. But there needs to be standard file type before it's attempted. Otherwise you'll end up with Solidworks, Pro/E, AutoCAD, Inventor, SpaceClaim,etc at random.

I do agree that we'd want to have a standard directly-printable file format in addition to the original design file, maybe STL.

However, I disagree about the original design files. I'd rather have original design files in a variety of formats that not everyone can access, than not have designs because someone doesn't want to take the time to climb the learning curve of the library's required tool. A lot of programs are able to convert other well known file formats anyway.

Quote:

And.... we need someone to host the files.

Yeah. Not sure about that. I believe there's some repositories of open source designs, maybe keep them in one of those existing places and tag them for easy finding? Or maybe attach them to posts like pictures?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Mercedes (or their supplier) no doubt have drawings of each and every part. What would be ideal, would be if they would place parts that are no longer produced into the public domain.

True, but they won't do that. Too much work, negative payoff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

I think it would be more profitable (and safe) if we were to recreate all the parts ourselves. The slight differences could be safely said to be "aftermarket" and Daimler couldn't come after us. Not that they would for individual parts anyway.

Well, they could squash it if they wanted to. That's the risk. If they want it squashed, its squashed.

Quote:

I'm thinking that the 3D printing might not be as profitable as you think either.

I'm not talking about anybody profiting from this. Oh, maybe someone will create a service from selling printed pieces, but more likely the 3D printing services would be the ones to financially benefit from this. Like you mention, the printers that could do a satisfactory job are very expensive.. renting a little time on one for an otherwise unobtainable piece is how I see the design files being used.

This is why I'm thinking we'd want printer-ready files as well as the original design files. Printer-ready files so galoots like me can just send it to a 3D printing service to have a part printed. Original design files so interested people can modify the designs to improve them or fix problems in them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bricktron

clandestine file swapping is the only way to go, i believe that mercedes would certainly try to shut down anyone publicly hosting such designs.

Perhaps. It might depend on what's hosted, though. I doubt they'd get concerned over some little plastic bushing a handful of people need to keep their cars on the road.

For example, the plastic Bowden cable adjuster nut. Not enough demand to justify someone trying to make a profit off a replacement, but maybe someone would be willing to share the design for one they made for themselves. They might even improve the design by making one that can be installed without removing the cable.

TnBob · #13 10-11-2013, 11:57 AM

Be a good idea going forward to first check with several of the 3d makers to see what programs their units are able to work with.

A great idea would be to have a patent attorney tell us what needs to be changed/modified to avoid any issues with MB. Maybe color ? or material ?

Or like with the vacuum lever on top of the 617 valve cover, a thicker contact
section to insure a much longer wearing part ?