4 cylinder bi turbodiesel vehicle available at MB dealership - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

t walgamuth · #16 10-24-2013, 06:23 AM

I believe the car in the picture above is a small SUV.

pawoSD · #17 10-24-2013, 07:48 AM

How is the E250 mpg disappointing? Its a huge heavy car with tons of technology, and its still getting 40+mpg with crazy performance. I'd say thats pretty good. Its practically impossible to get factory rated mpg's with a gasser driving "normal". Even my sister's Jetta only averages 23mpg city and 30hwy....with a 2 liter 4cyl and its about 1,300lbs lighter than an E-class. With A/C on in the summer she gets about 20-21mpg. Terrible. My 420sel gets about 15-16 in similar conditions with an engine twice the size and with an ancient injection system. My bro's E320 actually beats her Jetta, het gets about 23-24 city and as high as 32 Highway (with 28 being the average).

Our TDI has been averaging 37mpg city (lots of short trips too), and upper 40's to 50mpg highway. It has been improving as the engine gets more miles on it.

vstech · #18 10-24-2013, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

From a practical stand point, modern hybrids have modern diesels beat by a mile. Hybrids are quicker, burn cheap fuel, get much better city fuel economy where most people live and have proven more reliable over the years. While I enjoy the fact that diesels are making a comeback in this country, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM etc sell 10 hybrids for every diesel passenger car in the US.
It also appears that diesels popularity in Europe has started to decline.

Are Diesel Cars In Europe Starting A Long Slow Decline?

IF the car makers built the SAME chassis as the hybrids, in Diesel, the economy would be better with the diesel.
however, since the diesel vehicles more often than not, have more features, and bigger chassis, they require more fuel to move the vehicle.
IF the car makers would JUST make an economy diesel over here, it'd be a no contest hands down winner of the fuel numbers crowd.
the Smart Diesel is capable of 80MPG in diesel, while that's HARDLY a normal vehicle, it does show diesel's capabilities.
I think the Jetta/golf(or whatever VW is calling it now) are getting nearly 50...

winmutt · #19 10-24-2013, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

From a practical stand point, modern hybrids have modern diesels beat by a mile. Hybrids are quicker, burn cheap fuel, get much better city fuel economy where most people live and have proven more reliable over the years. While I enjoy the fact that diesels are making a comeback in this country, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM etc sell 10 hybrids for every diesel passenger car in the US.
It also appears that diesels popularity in Europe has started to decline.

Are Diesel Cars In Europe Starting A Long Slow Decline?

The day I see a prius driving through live shelling of a warzone in the middle east or Africa is the day I *might* agree with you.

TimFreeh · #20 10-24-2013, 09:50 AM

MB is going backwards in Diesel technology? You gotta be kidding me.....

The OM651, with a whopping 2.1 liters of displacement produces the exact same torque and HP ratings of my 2004-5 vintage 3.2 liter OM648. It has zero turbo lag, balance shafts, twin sequential turbo charging, state of the art common rail injection technology, variable valve timing,ect, ect. It is a masterpiece of refinement, efficiency and technology all rolled up into one very nice package.

Can you show me a more technically advanced passenger car engine in existence?

A 45 MPG EPA mileage rating for a full-sized car that weighs 4300 lbs and can go from zero-to-sixty in under 8 seconds doesn't impress you even a little bit?

What would it take to impress you?

By the way the EPA seems to be having issues regarding rating of highway MPG on their testing procedures. My wife has a 2013 GLK250 and while the EPA sticker says 33mpg highway we've been averaging 37-39 on highway trips in the 60-65 MPH range. It will crack 40MPG on rural trips where you keep the speed in the 50-55mph range. If the E250 is suffering the same fate I wonder if it could approach 50MPG in pure highway use? It will be interesting to see what the real-world results are.

With regards to the cost at 52K base its certainly not an economy car but as I recall your W123 in the day was in the 30K range. I'd say given inflation issues over the last 30 years the E250 is a steal compared to the market offerings that were in play when the beloved W123 was originally sold.

t walgamuth · #21 10-24-2013, 10:06 AM

The hybrids ace the diesels around town on economy. We will eventually see hybrid diesels though.

jcyuhn · #22 10-24-2013, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

MB is going backwards in Diesel technology? You gotta be kidding me.....

The OM651, with a whopping 2.1 liters of displacement produces the exact same torque and HP ratings of my 2004-5 vintage 3.2 liter OM648. It has zero turbo lag, balance shafts, twin sequential turbo charging, state of the art common rail injection technology, variable valve timing,ect, ect. It is a masterpiece of refinement, efficiency and technology all rolled up into one very nice package.

Can you show me a more technically advanced passenger car engine in existence?

A 45 MPG EPA mileage rating for a full-sized car that weighs 4300 lbs and can go from zero-to-sixty in under 8 seconds doesn't impress you even a little bit?

What would it take to impress you?

By the way the EPA seems to be having issues regarding rating of highway MPG on their testing procedures. My wife has a 2013 GLK250 and while the EPA sticker says 33mpg highway we've been averaging 37-39 on highway trips in the 60-65 MPH range. It will crack 40MPG on rural trips where you keep the speed in the 50-55mph range. If the E250 is suffering the same fate I wonder if it could approach 50MPG in pure highway use? It will be interesting to see what the real-world results are.

With regards to the cost at 52K base its certainly not an economy car but as I recall your W123 in the day was in the 30K range. I'd say given inflation issues over the last 30 years the E250 is a steal compared to the market offerings that were in play when the beloved W123 was originally sold.

Man, you took the words right outa my mouth. Since 1995 we have a larger, roomier, heavier, and safer car that is at least 3 seconds faster 0-60 and gets nearly 50% better fuel economy, and people aren't impressed?

I pulled up an inflation calculator. The value of $30K in 1980 (approx. 123 price) is $85K now. So in real terms a new E250 is about 30% less expensive than a 123 300D when it was new.

tjts1 · #23 10-24-2013, 10:16 AM

[QUOTE=vstech;3228313]
the Smart Diesel is capable of 80MPG in diesel, while that's HARDLY a normal vehicle, it does show diesel's capabilities.
80mpg diesel smart? Not in the real world.
2012 Smart Fortwo MPG Reports | Fuelly
2013 Smart Fortwo MPG Reports | Fuelly

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

I think the Jetta/golf(or whatever VW is calling it now) are getting nearly 50...

50mpg jetta? The vast majority of diesel jettas are in the 36-44mpg range and if you drill down thorough those, you'll notice most of their driving is on the highway. In city driving fuel economy drops precipitously.
2013 Volkswagen Jetta MPG Reports | Fuelly
The jetta hybrid (admittedly one of the more outdated hybrid systems available today) seems to get much more consistent fuel economy both city and highway while burning much cheaper gasoline.
Jetta Hybrid (VW Jetta) | Fuelly
Shadow (VW Jetta) | Fuelly
Big Blue (VW Jetta) | Fuelly

Quote:

Originally Posted by winmutt

The day I see a prius driving through live shelling of a warzone in the middle east or Africa is the day I *might* agree with you.

Lets hope said war zone in Africa is well stocked in bosch trained diesel mechanics and DEF. It would be a shame to run out of DEF while getting shot at.

jay_bob · #24 10-24-2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

Lets hope said war zone in Africa is well stocked in bosch trained diesel mechanics and DEF. It would be a shame to run out of DEF while getting shot at.

It's not just that. Consider emergency vehicles with Diesel power.

In Washington DC a newer ambulance with DEF ran out while carrying a victim to the hospital. Engine shut down, victim died in the back waiting for a replacement ambulance to arrive.

EPA mandated device forces ambulance to shut down on the way to the hospital | The Daily Caller

What if your house was on fire and the fire truck ran out of DEF?

martureo · #25 10-24-2013, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

The hybrids ace the diesels around town on economy. We will eventually see hybrid diesels though.

Yes, but they look like poo.

And anyone who actually thinks about where automotive technology is going knows that hybrids (parallel hybrids) are nothing but a chic hiccup. Hybrids will go the way of the dinosaur long before diesels will.

Series hybrids are the way to go. Diesel series hybrids especially.

martureo · #26 10-24-2013, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay_bob

It's not just that. Consider emergency vehicles with Diesel power.

In Washington DC a newer ambulance with DEF ran out while carrying a victim to the hospital. Engine shut down, victim died in the back waiting for a replacement ambulance to arrive.

EPA mandated device forces ambulance to shut down on the way to the hospital | The Daily Caller

What if your house was on fire and the fire truck ran out of DEF?

Yes, because the idiots in DC have a place in the discussion concerning the merits of a Diesel.

Puleeeze.

Smoker · #27 10-24-2013, 12:58 PM

Okay so I'm a rabid conservative, I teach the NC concealed carry handgun cert course and wear a tin foil hat(just getting this out of the way because politics gets into mpgs).

I'm a nut for fuel economy though, and until my back couldn't take it I ran up almost 200k on both of our geo metro 3 cyl convertibles.

Wife has a Volt (I hate the bloody uncomfortable thing) along with all her other 4 wheeled toys and it turns in 41 - 44mpg on pure gas running. It can go between 33 and 44 miles on electric.

While I avoid buying new cars (that Volt is the first dealer purchase since '99), if MB came out with a mid sized diesel that had w123 turbo performance and interior room, cloth seats and no frills, got 60+ mpgs, I'd be seriously considering it. I don't need a fast car, I need some room, a comfortable seat, the ability to cruise at 70 and good fuel economy.

tjts1 · #28 10-24-2013, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

Yes, but they look like poo.

The 50mpg Accord hybrid and 47mpg Fusion hybrid are descent looking cars IMHO. Not my cup of tea but if I was stuck commuting an hour or more every day in stop and go traffic, why not? It certainly beats driving a diesel that struggles to crack 30mpg in similar traffic.

Smoker · #29 10-24-2013, 01:16 PM

Those gas hybrids aren't worth the cost of entry. Initial cost over the non-hybrid, then the likely limited lifetime (for those of us that want to put 2 - 300k on cars), equation just doesn't work.

tjts1 · #30 10-24-2013, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoker

Those gas hybrids aren't worth the cost of entry. Initial cost over the non-hybrid, then the likely limited lifetime (for those of us that want to put 2 - 300k on cars), equation just doesn't work.

Neither are new diesels. You buy a diesel because you want a diesel, you buy a hybrid because you want a hybrid, you buy a V8 because you want a V8. There is no rational economic argument to be made for any of these. A 4 cyl gasoline fueled E class would be far cheaper than the E250 bluetec they're selling now. BMW put a $7000 premium on the 320d vs the 320i in the US. The price gap was so huge they had to rebadge it a 328d just so it wouldn't look so embarrassing. Modern diesels with modern emissions controls built to meet current US emissions regulations are stupidly expensive. No rational person would buy one in a passenger car.