I have installed several of these units on my personal vehicles.

Yes, they are gear reduction.
Yes, they double the engine cranking RPM.

I am not going to argue math, science, engineering, or your hypothetical knowledge on this topic.

With proof in hand since I have these units on my personal vehicles, have verified the now doubled engine cranking RPM, and enjoy flawless (faster) starting in any weather = your opinion is worthless.

.

__________________
ASE Master Mechanic
asemastermechanic@juno.com

Prototype R&D/testing:
Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician.
Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH).
Dynamometer.
Heat exchanger durability.
HV-A/C Climate Control.
Vehicle build.
Fleet Durability
Technical Quality Auditor.
Automotive Technical Writer

1985 300SD
1983 300D
1984 190D
2003 Volvo V70
2002 Honda Civic

https://www.boldegoist.com/

I was checking out the "Mean Green" gear reduction starters and their reduction is 4.4:1.

This means that the 9 tooth pinion gear is turning at 22.7% of the motor speed.

If everything else is equal, the engine will crank at 22.7% of the speed that it would otherwise crank with a direct drive starter.

However, everything else is not quite equal.

Firstly, the gear reduction starter uses about 100A less current than the direct drive starter because its motor is smaller. This results in a higher cranking voltage and, therefore, more starter speed.

So, that 22.7% figure will climb upward a bit.............I'm guessing to maybe 50%.

Secondly, the motor on the gear reduction starter is probably designed to turn a bit faster than the direct drive unit because it is smaller. I'm going to guess that it might turn twice as fast............maybe 8,000 rpm.

So, the 50% figure now can double to 100% and the two units are just about comparable on speed.

The only possibility of the gear reduction starter turning the engine faster than the direct drive starter is IF the battery is marginal (which is definitely the situation in very cold conditions). In this situation, the direct drive starter is at a significant disadvantage because of the much higher current draw.

So, in your situation, where you must start in very cold temperatures or have a very old battery, you MIGHT observe the direct drive starter turning the engine a bit faster. But to claim that it turns the engine twice as fast is, unfortunately, a fundamental violation of basic physical parameters.

I'm not at all surprised.

Whenever you are given the physical parameters that show your position is impossible, you walk away from the argument.

That is what we call a certainty.

The units average $400.00 each, and I consider it value added.

.

__________________
ASE Master Mechanic
asemastermechanic@juno.com

Prototype R&D/testing:
Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician.
Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH).
Dynamometer.
Heat exchanger durability.
HV-A/C Climate Control.
Vehicle build.
Fleet Durability
Technical Quality Auditor.
Automotive Technical Writer

1985 300SD
1983 300D
1984 190D
2003 Volvo V70
2002 Honda Civic

https://www.boldegoist.com/

That is what I call not wasting my time arguing trivia.

.

__________________
ASE Master Mechanic
asemastermechanic@juno.com

Prototype R&D/testing:
Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician.
Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH).
Dynamometer.
Heat exchanger durability.
HV-A/C Climate Control.
Vehicle build.
Fleet Durability
Technical Quality Auditor.
Automotive Technical Writer

1985 300SD
1983 300D
1984 190D
2003 Volvo V70
2002 Honda Civic

https://www.boldegoist.com/

-40 F... haven't seen that in a long time. You know it's cold when there's ice in the intake manifold and starting fluid won't evaporate. Modern electronic engine controls are known to flag temperature sensors as faulty when they see a reading of -43 deg so you know you're at the bottom limits of the place engineers design most automotive components to be happy.

This is absolutely correct. Your fuel has to start burning right away or else you wet the cylinder walls and then you'll have little chance without extra heat. It really helps if you can use fuel with increased volatility. Kerosene starts better than diesel in the cold but you'd have to find a place to buy undyed kero to run it legally.

This is the best way to decrease engine warmup time once started. Loading the engine creates much waste heat. Another trick is to warm the fuel in the tank. It won't help with starting due to the distance between tank and engine but once the engine's running warm fuel will ignite better and you can take off faster even with a cold engine.

Some engines use an intake air heater as a starting aid. Others use fuel warmers for the same purpose. A creative guy could come up with a way to retrofit these devices to the car to reduce the need for the 120V heater. Wish I could offer MB specific parts sources but most of my diesel experience is with domestic vehicles.

The auxiliary fuel heaters really are the cat's meow. We have several in our fleet now (both Webasto and Espar) and they're just plain awesome to have. They come with a programmable timer so you can set it to turn on by day and time. The bus / van is already warm by the time you have to start it.

Any chance we can get make / brand / part number for the gear reduction starters? I haven't located any through my suppliers by that description.
Edit... the above discussion with "Mean Green" wasn't visible when I typed my reply.

__________________
When life gives you lemmings... make lemmingade.

This thread made me look this one up:

How Cold Is It?

If it ever hit 40 below here, I think I'd call in to work, stay inside with the heater going, drink coffee and sit on the couch watching movies. The coldest I've started a vehicle in was -14. It was my '86 Lincoln with the 302 gasser and a crankcase full of 15W40. It started like it was 80 degrees. It hit -17 here a few years ago, but I was working out of state in San Diego at the time and riding around on my bicycle with just a light jacket. We usually get below zero about once a year, and it usually gets above freezing most days even in winter. BTW, my 300D didn't come with a block heater. I've started it down into the teens without incident and don't know how it would do much below that.

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Whoever said there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes never had a cheap Jaguar.

83 300D Turbo with manual conversion, early W126 vented front rotors and H4 headlights 400,xxx miles
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88 Jaguar XJS V12 94,xxx miles. Work in progress.

The claim of -40F. is rather interesting.

The coldest temperature ever recorded in Detroit was -17F and that was once back in 1994.

Perpetually referring to -40F. in ongoing discussions about starting in the cold is simply misleading.

Roy travels a lot, and Roy is not the only member to report the -40 figure... I'd bet he's been in wisconsin, ND, SD, Alaska, etc...

also, anything below -10 is FREAKING COLD!!!! anything below 0 is EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE to start a car in...

and, while Detroit may not have reached it...

this website claims Michigan has reached -51... http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0113527.html of course that was in 1934... I'm finding conflicting info on this date... some pages report it as 1994

WOW, even Missouri has hit -40... I'd not have called that one!

AAANNNNDDDD,

nobody is considering wind chill. (likely because it has nearly no bearing on inanimate objects, it's a "feeling" temp) it will however, make it more difficult to get a motor up to temp with a block heater or other warming device/plan...

a LOT of Humans report the wind chill as the actual temp when it's cold... (I've seen -100 and below wind chill temps living in SD...) so... again... semantics... it's STILL VERY FREAKING COLD to start a car in !!!

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

It does get that cold in ND and other places..........OCCASIONALLY.

To have an ongoing discussion of setting up a diesel powered vehicle to start at that temperature, reliably, without a block heater is an exercise in futility.

If it happens to start with all the luck in the world..........that's fantastic. But, nothing can assure a start at that temperature other than a block heater (or a Webasto, of course).

If it were me, I'd just spend the $1K on the Webasto and be done with it. Nobody wants to be stranded in the cold.

I edited my above response... added more info and such...

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

OK, since you raised it, here is the honest story on wind chill:

1) To the engine, -40F with no wind is IDENTICAL to -40F. with 70 mph winds. The engine does not know the difference.


HOWEVER:

When you shut the engine down, there is a period of time...........typically 12 hours............for the engine to go from 190F. down to - 40F. If you get back into the vehicle and start it anytime in this 12 hour interval, the actual engine temperature will be higher than -40F. and you will have an easier start than you otherwise would have had if you waited the full 12 hours.

IF there is a 70mph wind, the 12 hour time period for the engine to fully cool is shortened. Now, you might find that it falls all the way down to -40F. in six hours. So, you get into the vehicle 9 hours later (after work) and you conclude that it won't start BECAUSE OF THE WIND.

This would be an erroneous conclusion.

The only thing the wind affects is the TIME it takes to reduce the engine temperature.

yup.

however... if the motor is stone cold, and you turn on a block heater and there is 70mph wind (BRRRR!!! I DON"T WANNA WALK TO THE CAR IN THIS CASE)
the wind will also extend the amount of time needed for the heater to bring the motor up to starting temp. and if the heater is not a block variety, but a hose variety it can make it do absolutely nothing towards heating the motor, as the radiator will wick away all the heat. due to the wind.

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

Yes.

I wonder if anyone with the hose heaters failed to start due to heavy winds?

Those Webastos have quite a bit of power for a hose heater.

x3 you only get one chance to start it. Full glow cycle, then crank until it starts or the battery dies.

If the starter begins it's journey at ambient temp (-40*) you can crank it for more than the 30sec spec. Also, 30 seconds feels like an ETERNITY when cranking an engine over.

As a side note, blocking the grill does help. Some say that's the thermostat's job, but I've always had good results with a partial or full block in the winter.

__________________
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