Beginning To Rethink the Idea of 2 Stroke Oil as a Fuel Additive - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Danman · #16 11-05-2013, 09:11 AM

I use marine outboard 2 cycle oil every tank. I just dump in 12-16 oz every tank. It's cheaper than the 2 stroke oil for chainsaws and such.

My decision was based on the lubricity study that was linked above.

vstech · #17 11-05-2013, 09:25 AM

Hmm
Kerry, the study as I read it says biodiesel was the best performer 1/2 gallon per 26gallons of fuel...
2cyc was #7...

rscurtis · #18 11-05-2013, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mannys9130

I dump one container of 32:1 size 2 stroke oil in my tank when I fill it. The 32:1 is 4oz and the tank on a 190D is 14 gallons. I don't have any oily residue and the glowplugs came out clean when I changed them. They weren't fuzzy with carbon.

I just think you're using too much oil.

I agree. If you're getting an oily residue on the back of the car, it's not from the two-stroke oil. At 80:1 with gasoline, the exhaust is invisible. I would suggest that there's something else wrong with the engine.

kerry · #19 11-05-2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

Hmm
Kerry, the study as I read it says biodiesel was the best performer 1/2 gallon per 26gallons of fuel...
2cyc was #7...

I didn't actually read the study. I just read other posts which referenced it. I take your word for it. What were 2-6?

vstech · #20 11-05-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I didn't actually read the study. I just read other posts which referenced it. I take your word for it. What were 2-6?

2)Opti-Lube XPD
3)FPPF RV, Bus, SUV Diesel/Gas fuel treatment
4)Opti-Lube Summer Blend
5)Opti-Lube Winter Blend
6)Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000
if you go by cost per effectiveness, I'm sure the scales move around a bit...

Smoker · #21 11-05-2013, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

2)Opti-Lube XPD
3)FPPF RV, Bus, SUV Diesel/Gas fuel treatment
4)Opti-Lube Summer Blend
5)Opti-Lube Winter Blend
6)Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000
if you go by cost per effectiveness, I'm sure the scales move around a bit...

Those costs have changed though. I looked up the opti-lube summer on amazon and it's gone up quite a bit.

Starting a new job in two weeks that's 130 miles a day driving. I'll be likely just running 2stroke as it's easiest.

strelnik · #22 11-05-2013, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottmcphee

Vegetable oil has excellent lubricity.

Put on a flame suit, debate repellent is not strong enough for this baby!

I think people have forgotten the main thrust of this debate.

The real goal is to find all the products that keep our engines well-lubricated, longer-lasting, efficient and non-polluting to the extent possible.

It's like debating which product is better for you: Swiss cheese or Cheddar cheese?

Hey, they both have protein, taste good and can constipate you if you eat too much!

Suggestion: Instead of looking at at why my additive is better than yours, why not make a giant sticky-list so that no matter WHERE you are, you can find a product to treat that engine well and keep it running strong.

I kinda thought that was the purpose of forums like this, no?

rs899 · #23 11-05-2013, 01:10 PM

I just noticed recently that the place I usually fill up (which is the cheapest) is Murphy Oil and they seem to be running B20 ( or something like B5-B20) so I am good , I guess.

Interesting that used HDEO is somewhat beneficial in the referenced study. I am hesitant about that....

mach4 · #24 11-05-2013, 01:13 PM

I've attached a .pdf version of the study results - link.

It would be nice to have an updated set of test results, but I'm certain that these tests are not cheap to have performed by a certified lab.

Just to toss some additional data into the hopper for consideration (and probably to muddy the waters a bit), here's a nugget of data from the data sheet of the FPPF Lubricity plus Fuel Power product referenced in the original post.

This test appears to be the same one used by Spicer.

Comparison of results

HTML Code:

Tester                     Base Fuel HFRR         Treated HFFR        Net
Spicer *                      636                      675           39 worse
Research Institute            425                      260           165 better

* actual lab not disclosed

Recommended standards
US - no greater than 520 microns
Engine Manufacturers Association - no greater than 460 microns

So the base fuel for the FPPF test exceeded the recommended standards to begin with.

The question that remains unanswered in all this is, Why would the results get worse in one case and better in the other?

Pending other data, the bottom line for me personally is to go back to 2-stroke oil but at a 200:1 ratio. As has been pointed out, experience shows little documented evidence of problems with the MB IP using ULSD, so for me the use of an additive is really just cheap insurance.

I've done a significant amount of research and there appears to be no updated data, and even data on current HFRR testing of current fuels is not readily available.

thayer · #25 11-05-2013, 03:19 PM

Is there any issue with whether or not the hyper ball bearing test has any relation to what our ips do? I don't know enough about how an Injection pump works to be able to interpret the type of lubrication needed.

One thing in the study that I liked was that it hinted at the fact that there are lubrication additives in the uls diesel to begin with so it may be an exercise in futility to add anything to the tank other than diesel.

mach4 · #26 11-05-2013, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thayer

One thing in the study that I liked was that it hinted at the fact that there are lubrication additives in the uls diesel to begin with so it may be an exercise in futility to add anything to the tank other than diesel.

I went looking for some test data on current diesel samples that would provide an indication of how bad the lubricity really is and came up pretty much empty.

The base HFRR in the two samples I referenced above were 636 and 425. That's a huge spread. If the "average" diesel we're getting is more like 425 adding stuff could be pretty much useless, on the otherhand if it's more like 636 it could be really helpful. And if it's all over the map, an additive is cheap insurance.

Junkman · #27 11-05-2013, 04:41 PM

I've read the study and drive a Cummins 24V which needs some lube and add 2-stroke to the Cummins and both SDs.

Today one of the VP44 sellers on CumminsForum commented on possible negative effects but hasn't posted back with details.

There are pics off injectors after running 2-stroke (you'll have to search for it - sorry) Home Page of Mopar1973Man

I ran something else recommended by a friend of mine that sells diesel truck parts but quit using it because 2-stroke is easier to find/buy and the other more concentrated stuff was easy to over dose and not as cost effective as calculations would lead you to expect.

1project2many · #28 11-05-2013, 06:06 PM

Interesting results here:
https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10355/1311/UsingBiodieselAsLubricity.ppt

Slide 25 shows results of HFRR test with untreated diesel, biodiesel, and some mixtures. Conclusions found on slides 26 and 27.

Some apparently newer tests are displayed in this thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=196059

Tests supplied by additive manufacturer so should be taken with a grain of NaCl.

Cummins TSB on Diesel. Technical, interesting. 32 pages.
http://www.sbmar.com/Maintenance/PDF/Cummins-Fuel_ServiceBulletin_Nov-07.pdf
Good info like the following:

Quote:

Operation above 70°C [158°F] is not recommended due to the loss of the lubricating quality of the fuel with resultant wear to the fuel system components which depend on fuel for lubrication.

Danman · #29 11-05-2013, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1project2many

Interesting results here:
https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10355/1311/UsingBiodieselAsLubricity.ppt:

Hmm. So if I'm understanding this right, technically B5 should provide sufficient lubrication without additives? There's only 1 station nearby that offers B5- I've only been there once- my car seemed to "ping" excessively through that entire tank. Idk maybe ill try again.

1project2many · #30 11-05-2013, 07:01 PM

Yes. Another study here backs it up, although it's a bit tougher to wade through:

http://www.eng.wayne.edu/user_files/414/file/Quick_Upload/Lubricity_%20Kapila%281%29.pdf

A local company here buys veggie oil and supplies it cleaned and processed, and converted to synthetic diesel, to outside buyers. I met one of the original partners in the company and he told me almost all of the oil and fuel they produce is sold to major oil companies, by the railcar, as an additive for ULSD. After seeing multiple documents showing 2% BD restores fuel lubricity, I've got a better understanding of why the fuel's being cut with BD.

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