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-   -   Low compression in cylinder 1 on 240D (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/346492-low-compression-cylinder-1-240d.html)

airfoill 11-18-2013 09:10 PM

Low compression in cylinder 1 on 240D
 
Hello to the group. I've been having a rough idle problem/starting problem on my 240D that started in June. Starting was getting more and more difficult but ran fine after start. The car does use oil which is about a quart every 600 miles.

Then one day all of a sudden the engine started running as though on only 3 cylinders and had a very rough idle. I did a compression test and all cylinders were around 300-340 except cylinder number 1 which was 100 which explained why it ran so rough. So I did the simple test to see if it was either the valves or the rings so I poured about 1 tablespoon of oil into the glow plug hole and did a retest of the compression.....similar result....about 110. I decided it was the valves because the compression never came up appreciably.

Last month I pulled the head off and sent it off to the machine shop that specialises in head rebuilding. The head came back professionally rebuilt with brand new exhaust valves and a brand new gasket kit with new head gasket. Installed the head and attempted a start. I got the same result. It was very hard to start but eventually got it stated and ran rough at idle just like before but seemed to run a little better. I did another compression test and the results came out the same with number 1 cylinder at 100. I poured some oil into number 1 cylinder and retested the compression I still have the same low compression. I always though that if it was the rings, the compression would shoot way up with the oil poured into the cylinder......this never happened during the compression test. What am I doing wrong? I am so discouraged by this after spending all the time and money taking the head off and getting it rebuilt just to have the same results. I know it isn't the head so it's got to be the rings but can the rings be so bad that the oil can't make a temporary seal for the test? I've read Marvel Mystery Oil but does that really help? What do you guys think?

Thanks

Herb

upshift 11-18-2013 09:23 PM

100 is awfully low, maybe a ring actually broke or stuck and it's just too much of a space for some oil to compensate for it..... I'd say you're past the point of Marvel Mystery Oil being helpful.

I'm sure it's really discouraging to have done all of that head work only for the bottom end to be the issue, but just think of how awesome your car will be once you either redo or replace the bottom end!

ah-kay 11-18-2013 09:34 PM

I resurrected a 190D OM601 engine with low compression in cyl 1, also < 100psi, by doing the following.

1) removed head.
2) removed oil pan and pushed all pistons out from below.
3) honed cylinder 1, cleaned ring grooves, load of carbon, replaced rings.
4) It bought the compression back to > 300psi ( cold ).
5) The compression on the other 3 cyl are OK but I cleaned the ring grooves anyway.
6) Now the engine runs like a champ.

I am not sure how easy to do it with a OM616 but you may be in luck as it is cyl 1. It may be possible to push the cyl 1 piston out by removing the lower oil pan only.

Good luck.

Diesel911 11-18-2013 09:35 PM

What did the Cylinder look like when you had the Head off. Broken Piston Rings will sometime score the Cylinder.

Despite the comment on the Marvel Mystery Oil I think it is worth a try.

Remove a Glow Plug and dump about 1/4 cup into the GP hole and let it sit for 1 weak. Rotate the Engine and repeat the does for another Week.
In fact if you have the time repeat the one week treatment as many times as you like till the Bottle is empty.

You will need to change the Oil before you drive it due to the Marvel Mystery Oil in it.
Or I suppose you could drain out the Oil before you start the Marvel Mystery Oil treatment and reinstall the same Oil before you run the Engine. If I did this I would have to put a Note on the Steering Wheel not to start the Car and not remove the note until the Oil back in the Crankcase.

There is other chemicals People have dumped into the cylinder that are stronger then the MM Oil and they are in some of the sticking ring threads.

I am curious why you did not measure the Cylinder Bores while the Head was off to get some idea what was going on?

dkveuro 11-18-2013 09:53 PM

This is the very reason I use a cylinder pressure tester. I bought it from Assenmacher(?) some time ago. I tried to buy a larger one ( 4 inch bores.. up to 6 inch.) last year but they told me they stopped making them.

It uses bolts through two swing arms to hold down a rubber sealed plate to the top of the cylinder bore gasket deck. It has a shop air line attachment so you can use your 'leak down' tool to see if each cylinder is good, or needing attention before you fit the cylinder head.

Saved me many a time and do this to new motors I build too.


.

cooljjay 11-18-2013 09:53 PM

Was any alternative fuels ever used with the engine? Did you do a valve adjustment after the head was back to insure the gaps were correct?

airfoill 11-18-2013 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911 (Post 3241298)
What did the Cylinder look like when you had the Head off. Broken Piston Rings will sometime score the Cylinder.

Despite the comment on the Marvel Mystery Oil I think it is worth a try.

Remove a Glow Plug and dump about 1/4 cup into the GP hole and let it sit for 1 weak. Rotate the Engine and repeat the does for another Week.
In fact if you have the time repeat the one week treatment as many times as you like till the Bottle is empty.

You will need to change the Oil before you drive it due to the Marvel Mystery Oil in it.
Or I suppose you could drain out the Oil before you start the Marvel Mystery Oil treatment and reinstall the same Oil before you run the Engine. If I did this I would have to put a Note on the Steering Wheel not to start the Car and not remove the note until the Oil back in the Crankcase.

There is other chemicals People have dumped into the cylinder that are stronger then the MM Oil and they are in some of the sticking ring threads.

I am curious why you did not measure the Cylinder Bores while the Head was off to get some idea what was going on?

Diesel911,
I didn't get a chance to see the cylinder itself when I had the head off fearing that turning the crank would mess up the timing of injection pump during the time I had tension of the chain; it would be my luck that as I turned the crank, the chain would somehow get loose and mess up timing at the injection pump.

At the time the piston was at TDC for cylinder 1 so there wasn't any way for me to look for scoring. I didn't measure the cylinder bores unfortunately but I was able to determine that you can feel with your fingernail a ridge within the cylinder walls of cylinders 2 and 3.....but with 300 + in the compression test I didn't go further.

airfoill 11-18-2013 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooljjay (Post 3241313)
Was any alternative fuels ever used with the engine? Did you do a valve adjustment after the head was back to insure the gaps were correct?

Yes. I used biodiesel from a dealer which is refined and had the glycerine removed. And I did adjust the valves before the start.

airfoill 11-18-2013 10:03 PM

When putting in MMO do you configure that cylinder at TDC or at BDC or does it matter?

ah-kay 11-18-2013 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airfoill (Post 3241317)
When putting in MMO do you configure that cylinder at TDC or at BDC or does it matter?

MMO ain't going to work, not with 100psi cylinder.

I turned the engine CW/CCW whichever may I wanted when I overhauled my engine. It is not going to alter the timing as long as you strap the chain to the sprocket wheel. It is NOT going to jump a tooth with the OM60x engine. It is physically impossible. I ain't sure about the OM616 but I would expect it to be the same.

airfoill 11-19-2013 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ah-kay (Post 3241297)
I resurrected a 190D OM601 engine with low compression in cyl 1, also < 100psi, by doing the following.

1) removed head.
2) removed oil pan and pushed all pistons out from below.
3) honed cylinder 1, cleaned ring grooves, load of carbon, replaced rings.
4) It bought the compression back to > 300psi ( cold ).
5) The compression on the other 3 cyl are OK but I cleaned the ring grooves anyway.
6) Now the engine runs like a champ.

I am not sure how easy to do it with a OM616 but you may be in luck as it is cyl 1. It may be possible to push the cyl 1 piston out by removing the lower oil pan only.

Good luck.

ah kay,

Did you have any broken piston rings on your car when you took the pistons out?

Mölyapina 11-19-2013 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ah-kay (Post 3241297)
I resurrected a 190D OM601 engine with low compression in cyl 1, also < 100psi, by doing the following.

1) removed head.
2) removed oil pan and pushed all pistons out from below.
3) honed cylinder 1, cleaned ring grooves, load of carbon, replaced rings.
4) It bought the compression back to > 300psi ( cold ).
5) The compression on the other 3 cyl are OK but I cleaned the ring grooves anyway.
6) Now the engine runs like a champ.

I am not sure how easy to do it with a OM616 but you may be in luck as it is cyl 1. It may be possible to push the cyl 1 piston out by removing the lower oil pan only.

Good luck.

Out of curiosity, why did you hone cylinder #1 instead of replacing the cylinder sleeve?

ah-kay 11-19-2013 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airfoill (Post 3241506)
ah kay,

Did you have any broken piston rings on your car when you took the pistons out?

Not on the OM601 engine I overhauled but on a OM603. There was a lot of coking around the rings and the the same got stuck in the grooves. I do not believe MMO will help with heavy coking. If it is only 100psi then you need to take a look at the cylinder wall. It is loo low to be caused by coking alone. The cylinder wall may have been scored by a broken ring or oval'ed.

Changing the sleeve is a big endeavor with engine out of the car. I left the short block in the car. You only need to hone it slightly to take out minor scoring and imperfection and compression can be restored. This has been my experience on 3 engines, 1 OM601 and 2 OM603.

Good luck.

barry12345 11-19-2013 12:24 PM

Did you hear any lower end knocking? A really bad rod bearing could lower the compression result. How much I am not sure and it would have to be a pretty bad bearing to do so.

Might hold together with the cylinder not firing. Cylinder firing the rod is gone in a situation as bad as that. Usually the number one rod lets go on the four cylinder 616 before compression is lost.

Why such a crazy thought? Adding oil to the cylinder gave no upside at all. You had a hundred pound compression with or without it.

airfoill 11-19-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3241593)
Did you hear any lower end knocking? A really bad rod bearing could lower the compression result. How much I am not sure and it would have to be a pretty bad bearing to do so.

Might hold together with the cylinder not firing. Cylinder firing the rod is gone in a situation as bad as that. Usually the number one rod lets go on the four cylinder 616 before compression is lost.

Why such a crazy thought? Adding oil to the cylinder gave no upside at all. You had a hundred pound compression with or without it.

No. There wasn't any lower end knocking.


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