Good day installing new IP in "Spouse" - then I had to go and ruin it ! Broken tab. - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

mach4 · #46 07-22-2014, 11:10 AM

I wonder if welding would totally trash the pump. Welding aluminum causes warpage and I've even seen warnings about spraying cool water on a hot pump. Alledegedly the tolerances are so tight that that can damage the pump. If that's true, I can only imagine what welding would do.

I have no first hand knowledge or expertise but research is likely warranted.

jbrianfoto · #47 07-22-2014, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mach4

I wonder if welding would totally trash the pump. Welding aluminum causes warpage and I've even seen warnings about spraying cool water on a hot pump. Alledegedly the tolerances are so tight that that can damage the pump. If that's true, I can only imagine what welding would do.

I have no first hand knowledge or expertise but research is likely warranted.

Now I'm getting worried. Maybe I shouldn't weld it, but rather fabricate something that spreads the support of the pump beyond the part that is cracked off? Like a big, rectangular spacer. Something that when tightened would pull against the edge of the pump. I figure with the other two bolts, a new O-ring and the left handed bolt on the front, I may still be alright. Not that it would help allot - but I could JB Weld the broken ear as well.

funola · #48 07-22-2014, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mach4

I wonder if welding would totally trash the pump. Welding aluminum causes warpage and I've even seen warnings about spraying cool water on a hot pump. Alledegedly the tolerances are so tight that that can damage the pump. If that's true, I can only imagine what welding would do.

I have no first hand knowledge or expertise but research is likely warranted.

From what I have read, one may get away with spraying cold water on a hot pump with the engine off if one is lucky. If it is running, good chance the pump may seize and break something internally.

jbrianfoto · #49 07-22-2014, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

From what I have read, one may get away with spraying cold water on a hot pump with the engine off if one is lucky. If it is running, good chance the pump may seize and break something internally.

I'm going to take ya'lls advice - now that I think more about it - heating it by welding could possiabley warp the housing - and that would cause a laundry list of other failures. There would really be no way of keeping it cool during the welding either - could run a risk of fracturing the casing from a big temperature differential.

Thanks for the tips

scottmcphee · #50 07-22-2014, 11:30 AM

Those 3 bolts at the front of the pump are just helping to hold the pump flush onto the engine, and keep it from twisting (advancing itself). Remember you've also got the bad ass bolt coming through the nose of the IP connecting it to the sprocket for the timing chain. And the rear bolt. With all that... you should be fine running 2 bolts instead of 3 at the front. You can tell from the casting in the area.. it's not meant to be a super strong (critical) bolt point, or there'd be more beef there.

C.Doner · #51 07-22-2014, 11:30 AM

Silver solder may work. It has a high tensile strength. You can use a propane burner for application. I know it is risky but that would keep the heat as local as possible.

mach4 · #52 07-22-2014, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrianfoto

Not that it would help allot - but I could JB Weld the broken ear as well.

JB Weld would be a waste of time, but there is some aluminum "weld" material that is kind of like solder that can be applied with a propane torch. It's pretty tough stuff and might be worth a try, but there is still the heat issue mentioned above.

Your best bet is probably one of the used units that have been offered or trying to fab up a support tab.

iPs are pretty reliable....I'd probably go with a used unit if it were me. (thankfully it's not)

funola · #53 07-22-2014, 11:45 AM

Silver solder is for steel, not aluminum and requires a pretty hot flame (oxy-acetylene). Even the low temp aluminum solder may be too much. Agree that JB weld would be a waste. It'd snap off once torque is applied.

My opinion is that running with only 2 front mounting bolts may be ok in the short term, but long term may cause uneven wear in the front bearing/ bushing due to lack of even support (i.e. 3 equidistant mounts).

Like I suggested already in post #45, contact the IP rebuilder and ask for their advice.

ROLLGUY · #54 07-22-2014, 11:57 AM

There is also the possibility of using some kind of heat sink to direct the heat away from the rest of the pump during welding. I have heard that this can be done, but only by an experienced welder with the proper tools (heat sink). Your idea of some kind of bracket/brace should work best IMO. If you were to make a flat steel piece that extended toward the pump and has a hole in it for the bolt. That would hold that 1/3 of the pump against the block. As others have said, it does not need that much, and even the 2 remaining bolts (and center bolt) may hold it on just fine. If it were mine, JB weld in addition to a metal brace would be the rout I would go. Considering that the pump is newly rebuilt, I would do anything I could to make it work, and exhaust all possibilities before installing a used pump (unknown). Just my opinion though....Rich

jbrianfoto · #55 07-22-2014, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottmcphee

Those 3 bolts at the front of the pump are just helping to hold the pump flush onto the engine, and keep it from twisting (advancing itself). Remember you've also got the bad ass bolt coming through the nose of the IP connecting it to the sprocket for the timing chain. And the rear bolt. With all that... you should be fine running 2 bolts instead of 3 at the front. You can tell from the casting in the area.. it's not meant to be a super strong (critical) bolt point, or there'd be more beef there.

I agree - it is pretty thin, more of a point to help with fine adjustments. Now that I have that collar out of the way, it'll fit flush next time I mount it.

jbrianfoto · #56 07-22-2014, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY

There is also the possibility of using some kind of heat sink to direct the heat away from the rest of the pump during welding. I have heard that this can be done, but only by an experienced welder with the proper tools (heat sink). Your idea of some kind of bracket/brace should work best IMO. If you were to make a flat steel piece that extended toward the pump and has a hole in it for the bolt. That would hold that 1/3 of the pump against the block. As others have said, it does not need that much, and even the 2 remaining bolts (and center bolt) may hold it on just fine. If it were mine, JB weld in addition to a metal brace would be the rout I would go. Considering that the pump is newly rebuilt, I would do anything I could to make it work, and exhaust all possibilities before installing a used pump (unknown). Just my opinion though....Rich

Thankfully this is a not a daily driver car - it is a project I'm doing for my wife, so if I can make it work with the damaged pump (and not spew oil everywhere) then I'm happy. IF it just won't work, I'll fab something to hold it tight, if that don't work, sadly I'll have to get another pump.

Diesel911 · #57 07-22-2014, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY

There is also the possibility of using some kind of heat sink to direct the heat away from the rest of the pump during welding. I have heard that this can be done, but only by an experienced welder with the proper tools (heat sink). Your idea of some kind of bracket/brace should work best IMO. If you were to make a flat steel piece that extended toward the pump and has a hole in it for the bolt. That would hold that 1/3 of the pump against the block. As others have said, it does not need that much, and even the 2 remaining bolts (and center bolt) may hold it on just fine. If it were mine, JB weld in addition to a metal brace would be the rout I would go. Considering that the pump is newly rebuilt, I would do anything I could to make it work, and exhaust all possibilities before installing a used pump (unknown). Just my opinion though....Rich

There is a Heat Trapping past about the consistency of Toot Paste that could be used.

However, with Heilarc Welding a bead could be run and you could simply wait till the area cools down and repeat the procedure for other beads.

Obviously it gets hot enough to melt the Metal but it is hard to explain; it is like the volume of heat small and the area melted is narrow and the time to lay the bead is short.

Of course if it was used the Heat Trapping Paste would absorb some of the Heat and keep the Heat from spreading as far and as hot.

Mölyapina · #58 07-22-2014, 02:36 PM

Could you run a couple bolts through it -- something like this?

Diesel911 · #59 07-22-2014, 02:42 PM

When the Welding Job is done you need to take a Staright Edge and check to see if it is Flat because welding tends to pull stuff to one side when the Metal Cools off and contracts.

It would be benificial if you made a Steel Plate bolt the Pump down too. That way the Pump and the broken piece would be all lined up and flat against the Plated before the Welding Job.

leaving the Pump bolted to the Engine would do that but I have never seen how much room there is on the Car so I don't know if there would be room to do the Welding (and the Car would need to be towed to the Welder, not a problem if you are an Auto Club Member but would use up some of your free tows).

Adriel · #60 07-22-2014, 02:43 PM

I broke the cover on the injection pump and Tram said get the industrial JB Weld as stronger. Been over a year and held great. The issue is getting the long cure industrial strength and getting both parts cleaned of any contaminates. I bet with the load reduced and/or spread out, it last a good while.

Hope this helps...

P.S. I am not too keen on artistic the photographs, but the wine and cheese made my day yesterday! I have no issue with black and white, just the border and graininess is distracting. I keep thinking the film needs more light so lower ISO could be used... Keep beeing freaky just as I also have learned not to hide my quirkiness!