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  #61  
Old 06-28-2014, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
I'm not so sure about that theory.
2005 Ford Focus ZXW base kerb weight 2775LB
1985 300TDT 3571LB
1992 Volvo 240 wagon 3133LB
VW Squareback 2227LB

If I had to choose a head on collision between the focus and the squareback, I would put my money on the focus. W123 vs Focus might be more interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeMrOQfliCs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oPVESVlhPU
What theory?

My Focus was a 2007, the last model year and thus why I didn't get another.

The placard for the Mercedes states 4,300 pounds.

The 240 I gave to a friend, but had to be one of the safest I have driven. Volvos were the safest for decades and it also felt safe. However, it had not had the air bag checked like it should, so could be a hazard. The air bag components only have a life of 10 years, I.I.R.C.. Plus, doesn't have the room, the classiness, or a diesel engine of the Mercedes. Also on the individual basis I didn't have as much information and wasn't as well sorted.

The type 3 chassis was released in 1961 and significantly redesigned in 1969 decades before the type 1 (1934 I.I.R.C.). It was designed with crumple zones, collapsing steering column, and padded dash. This means the type 3 do way better than the crash test video. The advantage the Squareback has over the Focus is no engine to go into the cabin. Further, the windshield isn't right in your face.

I also have first hand experience. Both times the impact was at the passenger front fender, the Squareback at a combined speed over 65M.P.H. and the Focus at 55M.P.H.. In the case of the Volkswagen it was able to be driven after the accident as no suspension damage, one body buckle, and I only had minor whip lash; not even my glasses came off. However, the Focus had a busted axle that jammed into the power plant, eight body buckles, and had severe whip lash for which I had to be treated for weeks and never fully healed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
That's in large part because the W123 has a much more upright windshield than a modern car.
That makes a lot of since, Skippy! So then it is give and take. Once the windshields started leaning way back the air bags were needed to protect ones head from hitting the windshield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
I wouldn't say that airbags are completely useless, but they are very far from being the best in crash safety. A few weeks ago at Gilles Villenneuve Massa and Perez both smacked the wall HARD and walked away. They did this without the benefit of airbags. The main things that saved them from injury were the six point harness and the very strong survival cell the cockpit sits in.
What happened to those great air bags when I had my accident? Of all the incidents I have heard about, not one had air bags go off. One was when a family member head on hit a cow at 70M.P.H. on a dark country road. There was no air bag to protect them. So what good do air bags do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
I don't know if you've noticed, but today's cars are obese. They're filled with useless garbage, only some of which is demanded by the government. The other stuff is there to fill customer desires. Ten speaker stereos, electric windows, electric seats, navigation systems, entertainment systems, climate control systems, carpets, and sound insulation add up to a lot of weight.
My point should have been made more clear, tut mir leid. I should have said hevier guage steel. Punch a W123, an American auto before the oil embargo, heck I will even let someone punch the Squareback (the fender I am replacing though )! Then punch a modern vehicle and will do damage. The gauge steel is way less and that was my initial point.

On the point of heavy, the lighter and more nimble a vehicle handles, including engine performance, does help with safety. It is better to avoid an accident than be in one. The Volkswagen can be driven like a motorcycle in the way it can be whipped around. Those kind of maneuvers have saved me many a time and reduce the impact of the accident.

This remindes me two lessons I learned from the last accident. First, know yourself. I have a low blood sugar condition and can really affect mental clarity when too low because I haven't eaten enough. Not only had I not eaten breakfast or intake of calories, I hadn't had very much quality sleep. So I was basically driving intoxicated meaning my reaction times were way down. Even the six second space was enough. Second, keep your autos maintained! I had severe slop in the suspension but was told by the mechanic it was fine. However, when I needed the most grip the suspension wasn't able to fully transmit the forces and stop the vehicle in a reasonable manner. It was corrected right after the accident, except for the guide rods and springs; still need to find a suspension shop.

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  #62  
Old 06-29-2014, 10:53 AM
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I posted these pics in another thread, but here are some smashed up 116 pics that are interesting to consider when thinking about these old cars in the safety realm-




crumple zones worked, but realisticially the driver at least was probably injured in this accident

passenger, probably no passenger in this car, but if there were, leg damage probable-



driver- looks like at minimum, the drivers head was pitched through the side window and clearly hit the steering wheel really hard.



what I found most interesting, is that the most severe side of the accident is not as badly deformed as the opposite side, the 617 was forced down and into the transmission tunnel, buckling the floor and pitching the driver seat up and over. Who knows what speed this happend, but the body of the car was mostly straight still. The front doors would even latch.

The cars are tough, but improvements in passenger protection are far beyond the mercedes of this era.
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  #63  
Old 06-29-2014, 11:18 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
You shouldn't see any difference until you crash. The pretensioner tightens the seatbelt as the crumple zones are crumpling.
so its activated when the airbags go off?
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  #64  
Old 06-29-2014, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
so its activated when the airbags go off?

Pretty much, many of them (at least early) were explosive just as airbags are, and are single use. When they kick in they kick in hard.


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  #65  
Old 06-29-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
so its activated when the airbags go off?
They are activated a few milliseconds before.

-J
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  #66  
Old 06-29-2014, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
I'm not so sure about that theory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel View Post
What theory?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel View Post
In short, today's vehicles are so poorly built due to a Federal agency not controlled by the People demanding effieciency only obtainable with extreme weight reduction that compromises safety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel View Post
The placard for the Mercedes states 4,300 pounds.
Thats GROSS weight. That includes the car + its maximum legally allowed payload.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel View Post
The type 3 chassis was released in 1961 and significantly redesigned in 1969 decades before the type 1 (1934 I.I.R.C.). It was designed with crumple zones, collapsing steering column, and padded dash. This means the type 3 do way better than the crash test video. The advantage the Squareback has over the Focus is no engine to go into the cabin. Further, the windshield isn't right in your face.
I really doubt the Squareback is safer than the MK2 golf in that video and that MK2 is a disaster in an offset frontal offset crash. The current "small overlap" crash tests where all the energy of the crash is concentrated into 20% of the car's front end are pure death even for many modern cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkX16uDkHm8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel View Post
I also have first hand experience. Both times the impact was at the passenger front fender, the Squareback at a combined speed over 65M.P.H. and the Focus at 55M.P.H.. In the case of the Volkswagen it was able to be driven after the accident as no suspension damage, one body buckle, and I only had minor whip lash; not even my glasses came off. However, the Focus had a busted axle that jammed into the power plant, eight body buckles, and had severe whip lash for which I had to be treated for weeks and never fully healed.
I'm sorry you were involved in a couple of bad accidents but that doesn't disprove the thousands of well documented crash tests conducted over the past 40 years. With every new generation vehicle safety has consistently improved.
https://www.youtube.com/user/iihs/videos
Epidemiological data on real world mortality rates also backs this up.
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  #67  
Old 06-29-2014, 12:44 PM
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The solution is simple. Just buy a newer Mercedes. I wouldn't trust any other manufacturer (except Porsche simply because I'm biased).

Probably W203 on up, imho. I've seen the hits they take. And I've gone from a "I hate W203 and newer Mercedes cars. To I love W203 and newer Mercedes cars" because of how well they, and all the newest Benz' fare in real world crash situations.

But structurally, I don't see the old stuff much differently from the new. Except I really don't care to be picking glass shards out of my brain after a significant side-impact collision.

I would only trust Mercedes for safety. Unlike the others, they DON'T play into automotive politics when it comes to saving lives.
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  #68  
Old 06-29-2014, 12:51 PM
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If safety is your concern, buy a brand new car. Safety tech has come a long long way in 15 years, there is a reason they keep upping crash test standards. Heck, look at the tesla.


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  #69  
Old 06-29-2014, 01:26 PM
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It is my understanding that Mercedes Benz created the idea of a "tethered air bag". This prevents the air bag from deploying off to one side. Cars with non-tethered airbags have allowed the driver or passenger to completely MISS the airbag and hit the steering wheel, windshield, dashboard, etc. I was told by a Mercedes representative that many car makers do NOT tether their airbags.
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  #70  
Old 06-30-2014, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
Thats GROSS weight. That includes the car + its maximum legally allowed payload.
Interesting, as that is no more than 800 pounds, put the stated payload is at least 1,000 pounds I.I.R.C. and had it way over that with a trailer. Not that it is a good idea every day...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
I really doubt the Squareback is safer than the MK2 golf in that video and that MK2 is a disaster in an offset frontal offset crash. The current "small overlap" crash tests where all the energy of the crash is concentrated into 20% of the car's front end are pure death even for many modern cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkX16uDkHm8
I would say for an early non-air bag equipped wasser Volkswagen be about the same for an air cooled. The difference and what makes an air cooled Volkswagen safe is not having the engine in front. What I have seen happen is the damage stops at the front suspension which is slightly forward of the cabin. You can search and see the same thing. I can see your point that in any vehicle focusing the energy to a small point significantly increases damage. I am sure most vehicles be a lost cause. To then say one is safer than another is a invaluable argument, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
I'm sorry you were involved in a couple of bad accidents but that doesn't disprove the thousands of well documented crash tests conducted over the past 40 years. With every new generation vehicle safety has consistently improved.
https://www.youtube.com/user/iihs/videos
Epidemiological data on real world mortality rates also backs this up.
The Federal government has rigged the tests so the air bags go off. In the real world they don't go off near as much. So how can the data not lie when the results are not real world? Or, are they? If so, where from? I just want to understand how death rate has reduced despite only slight improvements in safety.

In the end, in any severe accident most folks will not walk away and have a high chance for death. I rather drive something I enjoy and die happy then to drive one of these blobs with no personality and live miserable. I would figure most folks on here feel the same way, right?

You only have one day and live it to the fullest!
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1985 Mercedes-Benz 300TDT - Rear ended 23 September 2016 and now looking for a new home.

1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD - Parted out.

1964 Volkswgen Beetle - Vater's since September 1968 and undergoing a restoration.

1971 Volkswagen Sunroof Squareback with F.I. - in need of full restoration.

1971 Volkswagen Squareback automatic with F.I. - Vacationing with her caretaker until he is in better health.
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  #71  
Old 06-30-2014, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Adriel View Post
Interesting, as that is no more than 800 pounds, put the stated payload is at least 1,000 pounds I.I.R.C. and had it way over that with a trailer. Not that it is a good idea every day...
The low weight limit MBNA's legal out in the US market. The legal weight limit is far higher outside the US. Same goes for towing limits.
W123-300TDT-Abmessung/en
Notice the kerb weight is 1600kg (3570LB) but max payload is 610kg (1344LB) in Europe. You could load your US car to that 1344LB limit but if something mechanical should go wrong, don't expect any sympathy from MB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriel View Post
The Federal government has rigged the tests so the air bags go off. In the real world they don't go off near as much. So how can the data not lie when the results are not real world? Or, are they? If so, where from? I just want to understand how death rate has reduced despite only slight improvements in safety.
The tests I linked above are conducted by the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway safety). They are anything but the government. They buy cars off dealer lots in secret and run their own independent crash tests. Insurance companies use the data to determine insurance premiums. Its in their economic best interest to find the safest cars and publicly shame the least safe, thats why all the tests are on youtube. Theres been many cases where they forced a manufacturer to recall and modify cars after a bad IIHS test score.
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  #72  
Old 06-30-2014, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
The low weight limit MBNA's legal out in the US market. The legal weight limit is far higher outside the US. Same goes for towing limits.
W123-300TDT-Abmessung/en
Notice the kerb weight is 1600kg (3570LB) but max payload is 610kg (1344LB) in Europe. You could load your US car to that 1344LB limit but if something mechanical should go wrong, don't expect any sympathy from MB.
Thank you for that great site! I am paranoid, including doing damage. As I can see, came no were near the limit. I don't expect others to correct my mistakes. I don't even think Mercedes even would listen to a classic owner!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
The tests I linked above are conducted by the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway safety). They are anything but the government. They buy cars off dealer lots in secret and run their own independent crash tests. Insurance companies use the data to determine insurance premiums. Its in their economic best interest to find the safest cars and publicly shame the least safe, thats why all the tests are on youtube. Theres been many cases where they forced a manufacturer to recall and modify cars after a bad IIHS test score.
Oh good, finally something the Federal government isn't involved in! So when did they start testing?

I wish I had known as could have found out why my air bags were defective. Bummer...
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1985 Mercedes-Benz 300TDT - Rear ended 23 September 2016 and now looking for a new home.

1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD - Parted out.

1964 Volkswgen Beetle - Vater's since September 1968 and undergoing a restoration.

1971 Volkswagen Sunroof Squareback with F.I. - in need of full restoration.

1971 Volkswagen Squareback automatic with F.I. - Vacationing with her caretaker until he is in better health.
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  #73  
Old 06-30-2014, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Adriel View Post
Thank you for that great site! I am paranoid, including doing damage. As I can see, came no were near the limit. I don't expect others to correct my mistakes. I don't even think Mercedes even would listen to a classic owner!



Oh good, finally something the Federal government isn't involved in! So when did they start testing?

I wish I had known as could have found out why my air bags were defective. Bummer...
I believe their earliest tests were in the mid 90s but videos for those tests are harder to find. They were prompted to do their own tests after the government only ran full frontal impact tests. All the cars were getting 5 stars from the gov. IIHS introduced the 40% impact test where less than half the car's front end has to absorb the energy of a 40mph impact.
Frontal crash tests
The 20% test is much more recent. They were also the first to do side impact tests against a fixed pole. This forced manufacturers to introduce head airbags. You can also look at euro NCAP crash tests which are just as brutal and also independent from gov influence.
https://www.youtube.com/user/euroncapcom/videos

Prior to NCAP and IIHS there was this German clip which was probably one of the first examples of a offset crash test. Its long but worth watch. The W124, E34 and Audi are the only ones that do well. The German market cars didn't have standard airbags at the time which could have helped a lot in this case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaiMUM0XVZk

Old NCAP from late 90s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=847AtiO5kkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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  #74  
Old 07-01-2014, 02:34 AM
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LMAO When did an insurance company become any better then the government....
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  #75  
Old 07-01-2014, 06:29 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
This is the pretensioner mechanism. It uses a pyrotechnic device to tighten the seatbelt around you at the same instant that the airbag is deployed. It helps keep your body from sliding forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RK9Aap7e8lA#t=99

Oh, thanks!

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