IP Timing: Need Some Advice
 

So over a year ago, I pulled the IP and the Oil Filter Housing to replace a bunch of leaky oil seals. I put it back together and timed it to 26 - BTDC. The car ran okay after that, though there was a shake at idle I never could get rid of, not even after new motor mounts and shocks, new injectors and a new rack damper bolt.

I figured it was slightly miss timed. So I set the crank to 24 this time, pulled the pump again yesterday and set the tooth marks to speck and then replaced. Drip timed it to 1/sec, at WOT. Replaced fuel filters (both) and bled the lines accordingly. Started car and it ran rough for a second, which is expected, spewing smelly, (unburnt fuel) white smoke out the back. It smoothed out slightly, but now there is a very pronounced miss (in fact often times multiple misses) at idle. Sometimes, it won't even stay running, when cold, and shakes ferociously.

When hot, it doesn't smoke but exhaust still smells awful. Acceleration is the same as before and will do 70 easily. On deceleration in first or second gear, however, (under 15 mph) you can feel the car shaking while in D, and you can hear the engine kind of missing/loping. At idle, the miss/lope is extremely noticeable. Adjustment of rack damper bolt yields no improvement.

This definitely is a fueling issue. My question is, is the IP shot? What about the possibility that delivery valves are sticking or damaged?

Was it shaking at Idle before you removed the Fuel Injection Pump and replacing it and retiming it made it worse?
And did the Car sit for a long time before you got it back together?

Adjusting the Valve sometimes fixes a shaking Idle.

If I did this on mine and the Engine was running good before I removed the Fuel Injection Pump and it started after I reaplaced and re-timed it.
I would fist look for stuff that might cause an Air leaking into the Fuel Inlet; including the Old Style Hand Primer if you have one.

If none of the above was wrong I would be re-timing the Fuel Injecion Pump or you if there is no mark already on the Engine that goes acrossed the Fuel Injection Pump Flange so you know where you started at you could experiment with rotating the Fuel Injection Pump tiny bit and tighten it down and go for a drive and when you come back see if it changed the Idle.

If you don't keep the Fuel Pressure even during drip timing the amount of drops/drips is going to change and you cannot count on them.

It was shaking, but not severely, before retiming it. Hence, the reason for wanting to retime. Valves were just adjusted last month and none were too bad out of speck.

When I went to time it this time, I never reached the point on the swivel where no fuel was coming out of the drip tube. That leads me to believe that the splined notch may not have been aligned right. But the engine was at 24BTDC with the cam ears pointing up. I'm wondering if somehow my timing chain is badly off. Would this be a symptom of such an issue?

When you stick the IP back into the Engine the Studs need to be centered in the Kidney Slots on the Flange or you can run out of adjustment during timing.

Your Timing Chain may or may not be worn. But, when you retime the Fuel Injection Pump you are timing it to the Crankshaft Degrees so as far as the Injection Pump Timing goes you have compensated for the Timing Chain Stretch.
Resetting the Fuel Injection Pump Timing does not change the Engine Valve Timing that is also effected by the Timing Chain Stretch.

When I had Hot Idle Shaking it was doing the Valve Adjustment and rebuilding the Injectors with new Nozzles that fixe like 85 percent of the Problem.
The Stock Bosch Injector Nozzles have some tiny passages in them that get plugged with Carbon and those passages are where the Idle Fuel is supposed to pass through.

I posted a whole bunch of pics of the diagrams on that over the years.
If you look in one of the threads that has the question which Injector Nozzles to buy I think you will find some of My pics.
DIY Repair Links
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/forumdisplay.php?f=82
http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/DoItYourSelf

I solved a similar issue by soaking the pipe holders in brake fluid for a week. The pipe holder is the piece that is removed on #1 to do the injection timing. Go ahead and pull each connection with the associated spring and plunger element and soak them. You'll not that the pipe connection has a tiny orifice. There is actually a spring type device inside that helps to avoid secondary combustion from the fuel shock wave traveling back down the injector line after the injector closes, (Or something like that).

At any rate, the orifice is quite small in diameter and any clogging here will affect idle quality.
Mike

Cleaning delivery valves
 

Masc,

Did you clean all of the components of the delivery valve assembly (Spring, valve, little thingy under Spring inside hollowed out cylinder thingy (pardon the technical jargon)? I may try soaking all of these parts. I don't need the car anyway for at least a couple of weeks. I just want it running again.
Also, did you label which parts go with what, so as not to mix up the components of the various assemblies?

Yes I cleaned all of the parts you mentioned; note that i cleaned the parts previously with little effect. It was the pipe holder that received the extra attention and what changed the idle quality for me. Eaton9999 also had a similar idle shake that solved his problem the same way, but i believe he changed his from a j-yard pull.

I didn't track which came from which d-valve and jumbled them all in the same container.

Its been a couple months since i cleaned mine and cleaned up the idle tremendously; I will likely do one more diesel purge and perform one more cleaning in the near future. I think the PO may have experimented with wvo. Might be wrong, but my tank screen was filled with muck as well.

Mike

Pipe Holder = Delivery Valve Holder

What brand mounts did you use? Lemforder or Phoenix are the only ones that should be used. Did you do the trans mount?

Have you adjusted the fuel pressure relief valve?

I used Lemforder mounts and also replaced the trans mount and engine shocks. That was last summer. It shook at idle for a while, even after a new IP adjustment bolt, but it didn't "idle rough." In other words, the engine sounded fine, didn't smoke, and there were no misses.

What is the fuel pressure relief valve?

This thread should explain it

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/234609-fuel-pressure-relief-valve-adjustment.html

UPDATE
 

So I removed the IP and set the engine to 24 BTDC (ears on cam lobes pointing up). I then set the tooth on the injection pump to match with the mark, replaced gasket, remounted pump, timed it to one drip per second keeping constant pressure on the plunger (pushing the plunger once every two to three seconds), fastened down all the bolts and reattached all of the injector lines, bled the system, started the car and it ran rough with lots of black smoke. I let it warm up, but still tons of black smoke at idle and even more at WOT. It still shakes.

One thing I noticed ... when turning the bolt on the IP shaft (clockwise of course), I encountered resistance in what I would call the first and third quadrants if you were imagining a graph laid over the shaft of the IP looking at it from the front of the engine. To me, this resistance felt like the type of gravitational resistance that would happen if you were holding a bowed rod out in front of you and trying to turn it. Answer me this gentlemen ... is it possible for the shaft inside the IP to be bent, or bowed?

Have you pop tested the injectors?

The injectors were rebuilt by Greazzer with new nozzles last year. I don't think they're the problem.

Do you have a ip locking device? It is to be installed in place of the 17mm plug in the side of the drivers side of the injection pump. When the lock is installed it presses against a notch in the cam in the injection pump which is only seen at 15' degrees ATDC. I would set the motor at 15 degrees ATDC and remove the plug and using a mirror look inside the pump and see if you can see the notch on the cam in the pump. Sometimes i haven't had good luck with drip timing, everyone has a different idea of whats correct and whats not correct with drip timing.

Thanks, I may try this tomorrow if I have time. I plan on just moving the pump around anyway to see if I can find a sweet spot somewhere. The wobble is what is concerning me most though, and the resistance I encountered on the pump shaft. Any thoughts there?

The cam in the pump is going to hit resistance as the cam lobes press on the plungers. When turning the cam on the pump when you hit resistance it will probably spring back counter clockwise depending where the lobes are at. I highly doubt the cam is bent or warped in the pump.

btw, the oil filter housing doesn't need to come off to remove the pump, nor does the oil cooler hoses.

Yeah, I know. I notched the top of the bracket the last time I went through this fiasco. Hell of a lot easier.

You can use a lug bolt if you don't have the timing lock tool....

But doesn't the pump still have to be drip timed even after using the locking tool?

I've only ever timed by ear and butt dyno, for the style of driving I do and have been totally happy with the smoke to noise to power ratio I've dialed in. Dripping for precision gains you what...? The knowledge that something is technically perfect.. But you still may prefer a little more advance if you're like me with heavy foot. And the precision setting is for a new engine when everything is tight and perfect.

I used locking tool only for IP removal to keep its rotational position.

Do you have a really sloppy chain, like is it old? How much do you have left on the chain tensioner... Maybe your cam and crank are too far out of phase because of old chain.

The car only has 177k on it. I don't care enough about it to mess with the chain. I barely use it except for the occasional trip to STL and back, and it leaks when it rains. I'd say 177k is too early for a new chain anyway don't you think?

Never hurts to check chain stretch. Not that bad of a job.

I would make sure fuel is coming out the return line on the injection pump. I would not want to see any air with it. Then I would also close that line off temporarily for a test.

If no fuel is coming out the return? The fuel supply system is weak.

Any major improvement with the close off and the fuel system should be checked. Specifically the fuel pressure present in the base of the injection pump. Age more than miles for example can weaken the fuel relief valve spring.

FWIW: As far as a timing pin, I have even used 7/16 oak dowel with great success. The advantage is that it's pretty snug, and you can tap the dowel groove onto the tab inside the ip and get it to stay snug very easily. If it is slightly loose, dunk the dowel in warm water and try again. Bolts and bits work as well, but they are harder to work, and don't deform to match the shape of the IP tab to grab it snugly.

My motor has around ~180k, and she was very close to spot on after using the dowel and at 14-15 atc; before this I had tried to keep everything aligned, and the timing was way off (Shaking, stalling, etc.)

Cheapest solution I've found! (Of course the real tool is nice too!)

Like these fine folk mention as well, the fuel relief spring gets tired with time, and that lowers the lift pump fuel pressure to the IP. I certainly noticed an improvement in take-off response when I adjusted mine, as well as the idle getting a bit smoother.

..ahh ok, try undoing each pipe line at the injector when the engine is running rough. You may find one makes no difference in which case it's a bit more isolated.

What's the procedure for adjusting this spring? Should it be pushed back in or pulled out further?

Here is the thread with a pic I took of the spring unstretched, at maybe 20.5. I stretched it to 27mm, and reinstalled.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/356193-adjusted-fuel-bypass-spring.html

Well I did the fuel bypass spring to 28 mm. Retarded the timing a little (black smoke, too advanced I figured), started it up and it still ran very rough, and wouldn't hold idle below 1000rpm. I shut it off for a second and my neighbor came over. I then fired it up again and it missed like three or four times in a row and made a very bad clanking noise and then died. I think it might've skipped a tooth (the misses were successive and bad). :( ...

I'm now considering parting it out because I don't really need it and I don't really need to spend two hours a day messing with it. Any last resort suggestions?

Mine was grumpy when I didn't have the IP right. Are you sure you aren't 180 out?

I am surprised that there is no better method of timing than the drip method---which is open to some interpretation.

I just got back from a weekend with my Ford IDI diesel buddies. ( Pre-PowerStroke 6.9, and 7.3 liter turbo and NA from 1983 thru 1994).
One of the guys always runs a "timing clinic" and checks timing. Pretty simple,---a probe on the crankshaft dampener, a sensor on #1 that picks up the injection pulse, 12V and a ground wire. Digital display of RPM and timing degrees.
If Ford,International or Snap-On can come up with that simple system, why can't MB?

By the way, if you want a really good injection shop where the Owner positively backs up all his products, look up Conestoga Diesel in Willow Street, ( Lancaster) PA. Mel ( Moose) Agne is the Owner.

Yes. I'm at 24 btdc. I've done this several times, hence my frustration. Over a year ago, I replaced the oil filter canister gasket and the IP gasket. I had a hard time retiming it then, but ever since then it's shaken a lot at idle, especially warm, so I figured it was slightly miss timed. This time, though, i just can't seem to get it.

I posted this about 12 years ago. You might try it just to be double certain the timing is right on. You don't have to loosen the IP, which reduces the chances you'll damage the gasket and have to pull the whole IP off again.


You might try leaving the IP where it is and while pumping turn the crank with a large breaker bar very slowly. That's the way I timed my 240 and my 300 after all sorts of fun trying to do it with the bubble method.

If everything is ok, you will find a point as you rotate the crank where the flow cuts off abruptly. It might not stop completely but you will see it slow down very clearly. Try it several times until you get the hang of it. Then just read the advance off the marker.

My 300D was about 4 or 5 degree too far advanced and that caused a lot of black smoke at idle. Since timing chain wear would only retard the start of delivery, this was caused by a mechanic who didn't know what he was doing trying to "tune" the car.

My 240, which hadn't been touched by anyone was about 2 to 3 degrees retarded caused by timing chain wear. When IP timing is retarded, the engine runs very smoothly at idle but smokes some at high speed.

So I just did some quick calculations, factoring in the time I've wasted messing with this thing, and I realized the opportunity cost of continuing to mess with this vehicle is not worth it, considering I don't need it. I'm posting it for sale in the For Sale section. If anyone in this thread wants to make me offer, PM me, and I'll send you a thorough list of the various things I've replaced and fixed, and the various things that are currently not working or in need of repair. Thanks all.