Car idles rough then dies ('83 240D) - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

vstech · #46 09-27-2014, 09:15 AM

I do not believe a compression test has been done. The return line hose is original, so e injectors have not been pulled... The lines are dusty, not oily, so they have not come off... Pulling glow plugs with the lines in place is difficult, and gp compression test fittings are difficult to use on this motor.

Also... You don't need to cycle the key to get the glow plugs to properly heat the motor for starting. Or if you do, you need to wait until the relay has cycled off, not the dash light. On MB diesels, the light is an outdoor temp indicator, not a gp indicator. All the light shows is that you are in the glow position, and its rudimentary test doesn't find a fault between two of the plugs. The correct way to heat the gps is to turn the key to the glow position, then wait for the click. You can also watch the dome light, and when it brightens, THEN cycle the key until it brightens again, then start the car.

I'd wager you have two burned out plugs.

vstech · #47 09-27-2014, 09:23 AM

I would recommend pulling your injectors and shipping them to greazzer so he can balance them. And while they are out, you can do a compression test yourself. Harbor freight sells a tester for about 40$ get it and see what you have. You will need a battery charger, and a pair of pliers, and a 17 mm open end wrench, and a 27mm deep 12 point socket full depth points, or an injector socket, also from harbor freight. And a 1/2"drive hinge handle/breaker bar... You will need a torque wrench for the injector install...
You will need to buy injector crush washers to put the balanced injectors back in.

vstech · #48 09-27-2014, 09:25 AM

Also, I would pull the lift pump and check the pressure spring length. And replace the primer pump, and both fuel filters.
Then get a valve cover gasket, and remove the valve cover and adjust your valve clearance.

vstech · #49 09-27-2014, 09:29 AM

I think you can do all the things I listed above yourself. You explain clearly what the parts of your car are, and you sound very capable.

By the way... That hose heater isn't the best block heater... I bet if you look under the air cleaner, you will find a block heater in the motor itself... It's much better at heating the motor.

funola · #50 09-27-2014, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yumeko-chan

I filmed it yesterday to give you guys a better idea of things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkIPNAWVy3I&feature=youtu.be

That engine does not sound good. Sounds like it's running on 3 cylinders. Here's a little test you can try: With goggles on and a towel over the injector, engine idling, crack each injector nut (one at a time) a 1/4 turn and observe the effects. It should change the idle sound. The one that has no effect is the cyl with issues.

You say the smoke is new. Is it new since the compression test?

What does the smoke smell like? Unburned diesel or oil?

Did the shop charge you for the compression test? If so, they have to tell you the numbers. What's important is that they are within 5% of each other and they are above minimum psi (above 200).

Ask if they did the compression test from the injector holes and if they removed the old heat shields and install new ones (a must - otherwise they leak).

When they had the injectors out, did they pop test them for opening pressure and spray pattern?

Make sure that primer pump knob is screwed tight - there is an oring under there that will suck air in if not.

funola · #51 09-27-2014, 09:47 AM

[QUOTE=whunter;3354298]...............
Today it is rare for me to see random spot check diesel fuel test results above 25 - 29 cetane, and not surprising that many come back 18 - 24 cetane.
I never see 40 cetane outside the auto maker or US government certification test laboratories.

..................../QUOTE]

Are you saying the labels on diesel pumps that says minimum 40 cetane is for looks only? That I am paying for fuel with much lower cetane?

barry12345 · #52 09-27-2014, 12:00 PM

This requires a full investigation involving a fair amount of tools and some experience. Paid for labor in the Toronto market where I grew up in would usually be very hard on the pocketbook.

The cars body looked pretty good and Americans posters should remember that her 272kilometers may be just 160k miles before the odometer failed.

Especially in that market I would probably just locate a really good engine from a salvage yard and swap it in myself. They have some pick and pulls. In the ladies case I just suspect she does not have a lot of tools to either establish what is wrong herself first. Nor the tools and place to change the engine herself.

So this car unfortunately for her has probably reached an end point. Say it was something as simple as a head gasket failure. The cost of establishing that alone and doing the job if paid for in her local market may well be impractical for her. Incidentally I am not suggesting it is a head gasket . I just used that as an example.

I really dislike posting this after viewing the video. Although to do otherwise might be a disservice to her. There are some good garages in Toronto at the same time. The cost of using them for the average person for a problem like this is just prohibitive.

Remember a simple valve adjustment alone could cost 200.00+ there. When you then add to the equation that you have to almost turn over rocks to find an honest and competent tradesman charging fairly in any field.

Just so she does not think I am targeting her and or Toronto. The disease is also becoming more prevalent here on the east coast of Canada. I may have to buy a large excavator to add to my toys. Then a float and heavy truck to transport it. The recient bids for jobs received from excavation companies are way too high. I can only pass on or absorb so much greed on projects..

The real world today and the reality is the majority of people buy new cars or lease them for a couple of hundred a month to avoid things like this. Not our way of life for a lot of members but the unfortunate reality of our times for a larger and growing percentage of the population. It costs like hell overall to live in Toronto and that's why we no longer live there.

At the same time I do like to see ladies on the site. Maybe it is just my limited intellect. I do not know how to even suggest for her to proceed without getting her into a money pit situation or extreme frustration.

The problem here in Canada is similar to the states. People with money get more and more while the majority just struggle along from year to year.

Personally I just try to treat people like I would want to be treated myself as much as I can. Or am allowed to.

cooljjay · #53 09-28-2014, 01:16 AM

Wow you have a euro car? Do you have cloth interior?

Primer pump isn't the original but a replacement that is usually use on cars that run wvo.

The hose running to the filter looks wet.

Wow you have a lot of oil residue on the valve cover, I am thinking it has a lot of blowby? hasn't seen an adjustment for some time?

Also looks like your sort house between the water pump and thermostat housing is leaking

looks like your egr valve isn't connected, have you disabled/block it?

oil cooler lines appear to be leaking/sweating

Man this car has been soooooo neglected, I don't even know where to tell you to begin....it needs literally everything gone over....the engine doesn't need to be replaced....its just that everything and I mean everything needs to be addressed..

The smoke is from fuel/injectors/injection timing/fuel pressure relief valve/glow plugs/valve adjustments/fuel filters/fuel lines...

your even missing exhaust hangers..

vstech · #54 09-28-2014, 10:17 AM

She's in Colorado...

why do you keep saying Toronto?

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345

This requires a full investigation involving a fair amount of tools and some experience. Paid for labor in the Toronto market where I grew up in would usually be very hard on the pocketbook.

The cars body looked pretty good and Americans posters should remember that her 272kilometers may be just 160k miles before the odometer failed.

Especially in that market I would probably just locate a really good engine from a salvage yard and swap it in myself. They have some pick and pulls. In the ladies case I just suspect she does not have a lot of tools to either establish what is wrong herself first. Nor the tools and place to change the engine herself.

So this car unfortunately for her has probably reached an end point. Say it was something as simple as a head gasket failure. The cost of establishing that alone and doing the job if paid for in her local market may well be impractical for her. Incidentally I am not suggesting it is a head gasket . I just used that as an example.

I really dislike posting this after viewing the video. Although to do otherwise might be a disservice to her. There are some good garages in Toronto at the same time. The cost of using them for the average person for a problem like this is just prohibitive.

Remember a simple valve adjustment alone could cost 200.00+ there. When you then add to the equation that you have to almost turn over rocks to find an honest and competent tradesman charging fairly in any field.

Just so she does not think I am targeting her and or Toronto. The disease is also becoming more prevalent here on the east coast of Canada. I may have to buy a large excavator to add to my toys. Then a float and heavy truck to transport it. The recient bids for jobs received from excavation companies are way too high. I can only pass on or absorb so much greed on projects..

The real world today and the reality is the majority of people buy new cars or lease them for a couple of hundred a month to avoid things like this. Not our way of life for a lot of members but the unfortunate reality of our times for a larger and growing percentage of the population. It costs like hell overall to live in Toronto and that's why we no longer live there.

At the same time I do like to see ladies on the site. Maybe it is just my limited intellect. I do not know how to even suggest for her to proceed without getting her into a money pit situation or extreme frustration.

The problem here in Canada is similar to the states. People with money get more and more while the majority just struggle along from year to year.

Personally I just try to treat people like I would want to be treated myself as much as I can. Or am allowed to.

barry12345 · #55 09-28-2014, 01:19 PM

I am not certain how, but I somehow very early on got this posters car and another posters reversed. Worse in my mind it seemed to re occur as well. Not a usual or ever even happened before type situation.

Anyways that she lives in a cheaper area to address things than Toronto is a good thing. I did feel I had to drop off this thread anyways after studying the video. Now I know why the body looks better than I thought it should as well though.

If you listen to the the engine cranking on the video before starting there is one cylinder probably with serious issues. I doubt it is just a valve issue with that much smoking. It at the same time could be a head gasket. I tended to surmise that if the mechanic probably felt the same so he possibly invented the compression test as I too could see no evidence of recient disturbance indicating he had done it. Yet why he did not tell her that left me disturbed.

He should have located the bad cylinder easily enough and done some form of leakdown test.

The head would have to come of the engine for sure in my opinion. Since I felt that if paid for work just to investigate even in Toronto may be a money pit. Cheaper in Colorado perhaps? Why would I suggest anyone go there? Now if her husband was willing to locate a good used engine and help her install it I could see that. If the problem is on any cylinder other than number one I might do a few more tests first but not pull the head before locating a good used engine,.

I would have liked to study the blowby a little closer as well but the opportunity just was not there. It may have told me if it was a piston ring cylinder wall type of thing. The only difference between myself and the nice lady. Dealing with this situation by having a look internally first is just time as I have the tools and experience. I guess one could easily locate the bad cylinder and prove air in quantity is probably going by the piston first. If not it probably is going by a breech in the head gasket to the oil feeder to the head. That should be visually obvious when you pull the head.

Un balanced cranking and lots of blue oil smoke. It was not black or white smoke. You are going to have to remove the head after locating the cylinder. Number one could be a head gasket. Any other cylinder you have in all probability is a real costly issue. If the lady wants to locate the bad cylinder the guys on this thread can tell you how. You will only need one wrench.

PackerEdgerton · #56 09-28-2014, 01:44 PM

OK, I watched the video. I agree with Funola. Sounds like it is running on three cylinders.

I wonder if you have injectors clogged. You might want to try a diesel purge. That would, at least, eliminate it as a fuel issue. In other words, if you run it on diesel purge, and the problems go away, then it's something from the tank. If you don't want to do a diesel purge, then run it out of a container of pure diesel.

I apologize if someone has already suggested this, I skimmed the thread.

Packman

barry12345 · #57 09-28-2014, 02:45 PM

Simple test with a problem like this. Do not glow the car and crank. If the cranking sounds even spaced compression wise I am wrong . If the cranking remains uneven I am right.

Personally I would have liked to hear what I think I heard a little longer. Once you hear this it is never going to be one small thing. The least unless you have blown a glow plug out of the block is a head gasket. So it can save a lot of diagnostic time.

Once an engine is running you just have a miss that could be many things. Funola was right of course most members should and probably did pick up the running miss.

It is the non running miss that is more important from a diagnostic perspective. That cylinder may even be back to partial function when running and that's why the engine still runs as well as it does. Call it a three and a half cylinder engine if you wish sometimes.

If the Colorado lady wants to post another very short video of cranking the engine for say five seconds with no glow could be more conclusive. As long as we do not get the alternator belt shriek and we probably would not. It was partially masking what I thought I heard. To make the test pretty much absolute have someone hold the shut off lever off while cranking for five seconds. That way some earlier firing cylinders will not cover it.

leathermang · #58 09-28-2014, 03:04 PM

OH , Barry, Now all your posts are suspect.... we have to screen them carefully to see if you ' are in the correct ballpark '..... LOL

barry12345 · #59 09-28-2014, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

OH , Barry, Now all your posts are suspect.... we have to screen them carefully to see if you ' are in the correct ballpark '..... LOL

No problem, I am quite agitated with myself for doing it twice already on the same thread anyways. I have never confused one vehicle mind location with another before that I can think of. Talk about attention seeking behavior.

It almost drives me now to get to the absolute bottom car issue with this pleasant sounding voiced young lady. Without her spending money. Once she is certain what is wrong she can make an informed decision.

Just so she is involved in the process and understands as it goes along. When I am wrong and that is sometimes. Usually it brings forth a correction from someone anyways. I even appreciate them.

I have great respect for women and never underestimate their abilities. This fairly recient terrorist thing at the moment is fairly new to many for example. Not me though.

I have always been fully cognizant that if I got my wife mad enough she would have my head off in no time at all. She seems to still love me and like me over all the years is about all that probably saved me that fate.

I still got the head job in other fashions from her from time to time. Deserved to of course but usually just for errors of omission.

Seriously though I truly regret any confusion I have heaped upon the posters thread. Perhaps in concert with other members some satisfactory absolute diagnosis can be established.

A sound bite of the cranking with the engine not starting would perhaps be a large help in that direction. One constant I have always admired about this site is that there has never been an unwillingness to really try to help others.

We on this site are perhaps the best general resource for dealing with the older diesel Mercedes I can think of at this time. Many like myself are not working mechanics. Still in general we seem to do a better job at many things than whoever the guy was she took the car to.

Unfortunatly there are far too mechanics, many much the same these days. A good honest knowledgeable mechanic with some people skills is getting to be a scarce commodity.

Yumeko-chan · #60 10-03-2014, 06:00 PM

Whew, lot to read over...

First, yes, I will have to consider doing a diesel purge. May be mandatory at this point.

No, I did not pay for the compression test. Salim's nice that way, offering free diagnostics. I honestly have no idea how he did the test, don't know if he removed the injectors or what the heck he did.

Yes, I'm in Colorado =P And valve adjustments by a shop cost $120. Prices have been pretty consistent no matter which shop I call. Last time they were adjusted was a year and a half ago.

ETA: The blue smoke was already present before the compression test.