190D 2.2 with 717.411 5-speed - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kahlil88 · #1 09-02-2014, 07:50 PM

Buying my friend's 1985 190D 2.2 with a bad auto tranny and installing a 717.411 5-speed from a 1984 190E 2.3.
I wanted to get feedback from anyone who has used this transmission in a 190D 4-cylinder, since it's geared a bit lower (especially 5th). I know they paired them together in Europe with a 3.91 diff so I hope the 3.42 isn't too low. I'm also curious if I can use a diesel clutch (from a 717.410) in this transmission. The clutch that came with the tranny is a bit burned... I'm told it should still work but I know that certain diesel parts are more durable, and a less worn clutch should last me a bit longer.

DieselPaul · #2 09-02-2014, 08:11 PM

I have a 3.65 diff and a 717.411 in my 200TD. Its a turd around town but gets 42-43mpg highway and around 35 city.

Your 190D 2.2 auto should have a 3.91s, the fractionally taller fifth in the .411 versus the .410 won't make any appreciable difference.

kahlil88 · #3 09-02-2014, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselPaul

I have a 3.65 diff and a 717.411 in my 200TD. Its a turd around town but gets 42-43mpg highway and around 35 city.

Your 190D 2.2 auto should have a 3.91s, the fractionally taller fifth in the .411 versus the .412 won't make any appreciable difference.

Both the auto and manual 190D 2.2 used a 3.42 diff in North America, and the stock manual is the .410 which has a 5th gear of 0.84 (versus 0.78 in the .411)

DieselPaul · #4 09-02-2014, 10:42 PM

.410 is what I meant my bad.

I was looking at a euro diff chart you are correct its 3.42 for USA cars.

That .06:1 with the gasser trans only stands to improve your mpg. My wagon has the gasser trans and 3.65 gears and drives just fine on the highway.

t walgamuth · #5 09-03-2014, 06:06 AM

I doubt there is a difference in the diesel vs gas clutches. The flywheel on the diesel Is likely heavier though, based on what they did in the 123s.

Dr. Sternschnuppe · #6 09-03-2014, 07:20 AM

^^^ +1
The OM601 & M102 have different clutch.

---> So, you need to buy the clutch for OM601 (201.122).

Ciao!

pawoSD · #7 09-03-2014, 08:00 AM

I have a 190d 2.2 with a 2.85 diff and it drives just fine. Its an auto however, so that's cheating a bit.

funola · #8 09-03-2014, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselPaul

I have a 3.65 diff and a 717.411 in my 200TD. Its a turd around town but gets 42-43mpg highway and around 35 city.

.....................

Where did you get a 200TD? Isn't that a Euro model only?

tjts1 · #9 09-03-2014, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Sternschnuppe

^^^ +1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Sternschnuppe

The OM601 & M102 have different clutch.

---> So, you need to buy the clutch for OM601 (201.122).

Ciao!

No you don't. All the m102, m103, m104 om601, om602, om603 and om606 clutches and flywheels are interchangeable. The only limitation is that the single mass and dual mass flywheels are paired with their transmission meaning you cant use a single mass flywheel with a dual mass transmission. Or vice versa. The input shaft is different.

BTW if you go through with the swap, this is the time to change the rear main seal.

kahlil88 · #10 09-03-2014, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

No you don't. All the m102, m103, m104 om601, om602, om603 and om606 clutches and flywheels are interchangeable. The only limitation is that the single mass and dual mass flywheels are paired with their transmission meaning you cant use a single mass flywheel with a dual mass transmission. Or vice versa. The input shaft is different.

BTW if you go through with the swap, this is the time to change the rear main seal.

Good to know! I thought they might be. How about the pressure plates?
There is a noticeable difference between the gasser clutch and one that I pulled from a 190D manual the same day (it was in the trunk, trans already gone). I was reading on another thread the diesel clutches are better designed to handle power pulses from the engine.
Will definitely order a new seal if it's available on FCP Euro, unless you can recommend a better source? Do all 717.4 manual transmissions use the same seal?

tjts1 · #11 09-03-2014, 02:36 PM

The pressure plate is paired with the flywheel so if you're using a flywheel from a 190e to mount in your 190d, order the 190e pressure plate. Check the diameter of the clutch disk vs the diameter of the friction surface area on the flywheel. Some 4 cyls got an 8" disk in an 8.5" fly wheel so you might be able to up the size of the disk on the same flywheel.

If both the diesel and gasser flywheels are single mass, by all means use the heavier diesel one. But even if you use the lighter gasser flywheel, you're never going to notice the difference. I'm using an M103/M104 flywheel behind my OM603 for the last 19,000 miles and its perfectly reliable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahlil88

Do all 717.4 manual transmissions use the same seal?

The rear main seal is installed at the back end of engine's crankshaft, not the transmission. You normally have to remove the transmission and flywheel to get to it. Its a cheap $15 part and well worth doing while you're in there.

kahlil88 · #12 09-03-2014, 02:44 PM

The transmission is complete, so I've got the pressure plate, clutch, etc. Then there is the clutch and pressure plate from the 190D. Can you provide a part number for the rear seal?

tjts1 · #13 09-03-2014, 02:49 PM

#125 in the diagram
CYLINDER CRANKCASE,COVER,GASKET KIT. Fits: 1985 Mercedes 190 D 2.2 Sedan | Mercedes-Benz of South Atlanta
0179977447 ; 0099979047; 0109971047; 0109973547

As far as I know its a universal PN across all the above mentioned engines and then some.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahlil88

The transmission is complete, so I've got the pressure plate, clutch, etc.

I hope you also have the front half of the drive shaft if not the whole thing drive shaft that came with the manual transmission. The front half of the DS is longer on the manual transmission.

winmutt · #14 09-03-2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

[INDENT]
No you don't. All the m102, m103, m104 om601, om602, om603 and om606 clutches and flywheels are interchangeable. The only limitation is that the single mass and dual mass flywheels are paired with their transmission meaning you cant use a single mass flywheel with a dual mass transmission. Or vice versa. The input shaft is different.

BTW if you go through with the swap, this is the time to change the rear main seal.

Was just reading about someone with an om606 and the tach sensor mounting depth was different. Also diesel fw wont work on (some/all) gasser but gasser will work on diesel.

kahlil88 · #15 09-03-2014, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

#125 in the diagram
CYLINDER CRANKCASE,COVER,GASKET KIT. Fits: 1985 Mercedes 190 D 2.2 Sedan | Mercedes-Benz of South Atlanta
0179977447 ; 0099979047; 0109971047; 0109973547

As far as I know its a universal PN across all the above mentioned engines and then some.

I hope you also have the front half of the drive shaft if not the whole thing drive shaft that came with the manual transmission. The front half of the DS is longer on the manual transmission.

Yep, I got everything. I hired Dieselkraut to help me do the conversion so nothing important got left behind!

My other big question is what kind of fluid to use? There seems to be a lot of debate and I haven't landed on a solid answer yet. The manual specifies "ATF" but of course the recipes are different 30 years later. I'm told that ATF is bad for brass and that gear oil is fine, but maybe it depends on the viscosity? Mercede$$ource recommends/carries synthetic gear oil (looks like 75W90).