240D Only starts in the morning with a shot of Starter Fluid - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Brock_Samson · #1 10-08-2014, 07:05 PM

83 240D

Symptom: In the morning or just after not being started for a few hours. Car will either take forever to start (like it needs fuel) or drain the battery trying.

Temp Solution: A shot of starter fluid in the intake tube will fire it right up. but obviously isnt good for it.

Since the problem started i have verified the glow plugs, relay, battery and fuel primer pump plunger are good.

what should i look into next? valve adjustment? something with the fuel?

dude99 · #2 10-08-2014, 07:46 PM

A valve adjustment is always a good idea, especially this time of year. First question though is how did you verify the glow plugs, did you just ohm them out or did you physically remove them and see that they worked? Using ether is a REALLY bad idea in these engines.....

If the plugs check out I would look at all of your rubber lines as it could be an air leak.

Mxfrank · #3 10-08-2014, 09:23 PM

Eyeball the fuel lines from engine to tank. It sounds like you have a bad hose or rusted hard line allowing air to bleed into the plumbing.

leathermang · #4 10-08-2014, 10:01 PM

How long has this been going on ?
If you are pretty sure your glowplugs are getting hot.... you should pull them and ream the holes they are in....as carbon can build up to where they are not effective ... and it becomes that way slowly.... then cooler weather... or starter getting weaker..... along with weaker battery....and no start...
You really need a properly done compression test... after being sure your valves are set properly....
A few seconds of ' ether ' sprayed into the intake While the engine is cranking is not going to hurt these engines..... Whunter and I have been saying that for years...check archives if you want the bigger discussion...

barry12345 · #5 10-08-2014, 10:57 PM

There is something obviously going on. Your daily temperatures are not low. I might tend to re examine the glow plugs and circuit first.

Have a look at the passenger light to determine that the glow plugs are actually on by the light being dimmer for the expected glow plug cycle first. This best done in poor lighting conditions sometimes.

An engine will have some residual heat remaining after just several hours. So do the test after the car has sat for quite a time. The dimness of the light should substantially increase or become brighter when the sound of the glow plug relay opens up. I have this feeling the light may just remain constant for your test.

Only after this simple test would I move along. Fuel drain back might be my next thought. Shutting the car off I would clamp the fuel line hose off just before the first fuel filter. Remove the clamp just prior to restarting the car a few hours later.

I do not expect it to be fuel drain back if the transition from the starting fluid to diesel fuel running is smooth transition wise now. Neither test is absolutely conclusive but would provide some indication of where the problem probably is easily enough. Examine things like the primer pump and primary filter for fuel leakage before removing the clamp. I like to keep things really simple or as simple as I can initially.

Brock_Samson · #6 10-08-2014, 11:46 PM

passenger light? i have a manual relay setup now as i assumed the problem was the relay at first due to the fact the relay dash light was not coming on 100 percent of the time, less as the problem arose.

yes i ohm'd the glow plugs to verify they where good. next step sounds like removal and rheeming (i have the tool). and valve adjustment.

fuel. i noticed a leak around the fuel primer plunger, replacing that seemed to fix that leak.

being in California its still tshirt weather in the morning...

barry12345 · #7 10-09-2014, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock_Samson

passenger light? i have a manual relay setup now as i assumed the problem was the relay at first due to the fact the relay dash light was not coming on 100 percent of the time, less as the problem arose.

yes i ohm'd the glow plugs to verify they where good. next step sounds like removal and rheeming (i have the tool). and valve adjustment.

fuel. i noticed a leak around the fuel primer plunger, replacing that seemed to fix that leak.

being in California its still tshirt weather in the morning...

Forget the dash light. It was not a positive indication they where on and drawing current even when you had it. In fact it does sound like it may have had issues. Do the interior light thing even with your set up.

Also if you could describe your manual replacement glow plug setup as it may be current limiting. The relay you are triggering must be good enough to carry probably 80 amps easily. I doubt you can easily find a manual switch to easily carry that much current. Another way is to measure the actual glow plug voltage present when your glow circuit is on. I am not positive but 10.5 volts to maybe 11 volts or even a little more is what I would want to see. This is just a guessmate by me voltage wise incidentally.

The perverse logic is you almost certainly had glow plug circuit issues. Always backtrack if the issue does not seem really fixed first.

Brock_Samson · #8 10-09-2014, 03:35 AM

Adding the manual relay didn't change the issue at all really, same symptoms, just one less problem in the equation I guess..

I Run heavy gage cable to a heavy duty fuse then to a 80amp continuous duty 4 post manual relay... The other large post goes to the 4 pencil plugs ran in parallel, the 2 smaller post are ground, and the switch a heavy duty unit also, though the relay has all the load not the switch. I'll test the voltage out of the glad plug side of the switch tmrow for the sake of the thread.

Thanks thus far.

psaboic · #9 10-09-2014, 08:53 AM

Please DO NOT use starting fluid. You are risking doing some serious damage to the engine. If you have to use anything, use some WD-40 to kick start a diesel motor. Works well and is a lot safer. Save the starting fluid for a gasser.

vstech · #10 10-09-2014, 09:42 AM

pull each glow plug out, and attach jumper cables to them, connect cables to battery, and note if the tip glows. if the tip does not glow, toss the plug, and replace... repeat for the rest.

DieselPaul · #11 10-09-2014, 10:09 AM

In his first post the OP addresses that he realizes ether is not good for the car and is interested in fixing the car properly but I guess only I read that.

Adjust the valves, its never a bad idea.

Are the fuel filters fresh? Also never a bad idea.

And as suggested actually test the glow plugs out of the car.

Have you used a test light to verify the glow plug relay is putting out power when it should be?

leathermang · #12 10-09-2014, 10:27 AM

Spraying something like starter fluid into the intake for a few seconds with the engine cranking will do no harm...
There is not enough BTU's to hurt an engine which is designed for 21 to one compression ratio in the first place and uses Diesel fuel...which is very high in power...
Whunter has weighed in on this ... if you can not figure it out yourselves...
There are people on this forum who had to use a spray helper to start their cars FOR YEARS.... with no harm done...

Diesel911 · #13 10-09-2014, 10:30 AM

I did not read all of the Posts closely so this could be a repeat.

It could be that the Fuel Supply/Lift Pump is sort of losing its prime and the Fuel is migrating back to the Fuel Tank taking a lot of cranking to bring it back to the Fuel Supply/Lift Pump.

To test for that before you start get on the Hand Primer and pump and pump and pump some more to bring Fuel up to the Fuel Injection Pump. If it starts like that you have identified at least part of the problem.

There is cheap Fuel Supply Pump Rebuild Kits avaiilable. There is instructions to do the rebuild in the Repair Links.
Repair Links
Fast navigation Fast navigation Do It Yourself Links

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diy-links-parts-category/
http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/DoItYourSelf

Brock_Samson · #14 10-09-2014, 11:14 AM

Yeah enough about the Either, we are all adults and the motor has over 300k i understand how NOT to use either and how to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselPaul

Adjust the valves, its never a bad idea.
- yeah i think ill get on that this weekend.

Are the fuel filters fresh? Also never a bad idea.
- yes they are

And as suggested actually test the glow plugs out of the car.
- also this weekend

Have you used a test light to verify the glow plug relay is putting out power when it should be?
- yes i have

forgot my tester today i was gonna test the relay output voltage at lunch. thanks for all the info, ill jump on those and get back to this thread.

i have a feeling its the fuel return... to be continued

psaboic · #15 10-10-2014, 12:07 AM

[QUOTE] In his first post the OP addresses that he realizes ether is not good for the car and is interested in fixing the car properly but I guess only I read that.

[QUOTE] Spraying something like starter fluid into the intake for a few seconds with the engine cranking will do no harm...
There is not enough BTU's to hurt an engine which is designed for 21 to one compression ratio in the first place and uses Diesel fuel...which is very high in power...
Whunter has weighed in on this ... if you can not figure it out yourselves...
There are people on this forum who had to use a spray helper to start their cars FOR YEARS.... with no harm done...

[QUOTE] Yeah enough about the Either, we are all adults and the motor has over 300k i understand how NOT to use either and how to.

JESUS!!! All I did was try to offer some advice to someone...Guess since I don't have several thousand posts it means I don't have a clue or deserve lattitude..........I really appreciate getting chastized for simply offering some help and a safety precaution. Thanks................

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