Which model, 240d or 300d???? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

leathermang · #31 11-28-2014, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junqueyardjim

..... I think some of the guys are going into it blind..... You know, I have a front drive shaft piece which I got from TW which has one of those vibration dampers built onto the front end of it......

That is all I worry about... people getting into something without good information as to what is needed to get to something they will enjoy commensurate with all the work they will have put into the project...

That vibration damper sure may be what I was sorta remembering... from way back...

Lucas · #32 11-29-2014, 01:16 PM

And this is why I dropped an original 615 in and didn't pursue a swap. lol. I still don't get it. Maybe one year.

JB3 · #33 11-29-2014, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucas

And this is why I dropped an original 615 in and didn't pursue a swap. lol. I still don't get it. Maybe one year.

Why?
Twice the HP and better connection to the wheels.

Harder for you in a 114/115, but the why is the car is a heck of a lot more fun to drive

panZZer · #34 11-29-2014, 02:28 PM

[QUOTE=JB3;3413238]Im not sure how the machine shop does the job, there is some trial and error from what I understand. Ive been told a couple times but always forget

If you simply bolt on a new flywheel you have potentially 12 positions until you get it right. Thats a heck of a lot of work with the car having to be drivable between every position so you can see if the vibration exists or not.

Makes way more sense to mark the crank to the existing automatic flywheel (driven plate), and drop off the driven plate and manual flywheel at a machine shop. You do not need to provide the torque converter.

Here is a pic in one of my swaps that shows a 38lb flywheel below a driven plate after they were match balanced. The machinist said the driven plate was a few grams weighted, so he duplicated the weighted side on the 38lb flywheel for me. This was a 1979 300SD 617.

Here is a video of a driven plate out of a 1983 300D 617 that shows a definite heavy spot. (I was trying to figure out why the thing was undrivable in a swap application). My problem is the stock flywheel was weighted, AND my replacement flywheel was weighted, and I got the bias completely off making a horrendous vibration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAX6FiShQjQ

For what its worth, ive come across this phenomena twice personally out of 4 conversions so im at 50%, but people have done a bunch of conversions and not encountered this at all. My take is that its worth it to be sure, if its a neutral balance, thats great, and if it wasnt, at least you made sure.

I have never come across this on a 240 616 though. I think it is a 617 quirk. The number one thing is you have to mark the crank to the driven plate before you move it, otherwise you are in for the 12 position nightmare, which is not practical at all. My one complaint with mercedes about this is why isnt the crank bolt pattern asymmetrical so you can only put a flywheel on one way? plenty of other manufacturers do this, and it eliminates the entire possibility of losing your reference point[/QUOTE

It seems around 82-3 they started neutral balancing the engines.

Stretch · #35 11-29-2014, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junqueyardjim

Thanks Leathermang, I agree 100%. The swap is really worth while, but I think some of the guys are going into it blind. You know, I have a front drive shaft piece which I got from TW which has one of those vibration dampers built onto the front end of it. It is broken but it looks like a wheel which was attached with three heavy rubber spokes. And that is just what that wheel is meant to do, absorb more of those harsh cylinder loads which are produced under full throttle at max torque. I have "ground" off the remains of those three spokes and do plan to use this piece in place of my modified shaft. I suspect the wheel part is only available with the whole shaft and the price is probably out of sight.

I've been quite reliably informed that those vibration dampers were all fitted to the 5 speed Getrag gearboxes in the W123. This damper eventually migrated to the W201 in both four and five speed gearboxes...

...some people are not very complimentary about this damper. I don't see why. But then I've not tried it with or without.

Lucas · #36 11-29-2014, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

Why?

Twice the HP and better connection to the wheels.

Harder for you in a 114/115, but the why is the car is a heck of a lot more fun to drive

Getting that flywheel right. I jumped in a week after buying my first Benz and was lost.

I have a handful of chassis issues to deal with. And didn't want the complexity of radiator, shutoff etc added to my todo list. Realistically I want a copper radiator and heater cores, and want to do it all right. So buying the used parts I needed didn't make sense compared to going with an original motor.

I want to get the chassis squared away, body repaired and painted, interior redone etc and then approach a motor.

I needed time to get the details. Like if I need to change the driveshaft. FYI, if you use mounts from a 115 300D the tranny stays in the same spot. Anyone have some? Lol b

And I want to rebuild a fresh 617 turbo. I'm trying to use the car as a daily driver and work as I go, and want some serious stand time to put a fresh motor together.

I was hoping to run the OG motor and do all this. But oil pump failure and fate said no. Fortunately, a buddy is slowly wanting to put a 4 cylinder NA in his jeep, so my currant motor has a future home and a cash return for me.

I'm a serious OCD planner. And felt this was my best course.

And I'm still learning. Like just seeing the 82-83 was when they started to neutrally balance. Definitely want to go that route. Although I'll research more.

leathermang · #37 11-29-2014, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

......some people are not very complimentary about this damper......

I agree.... I would be suspicious too..... that damper is designed to take out the residual vibrations in a correctly set up situation..
here are some of the things which might cause someone to falsely blame that damper....

1. The flywheel at some point was not put back on in the correct orientation for that engine.
2. The driveshaft was taken apart without marking it... and was put back in not in the balanced relationship it came with....

Stretch · #38 11-30-2014, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

I agree.... I would be suspicious too..... that damper is designed to take out the residual vibrations in a correctly set up situation..
here are some of the things which might cause someone to falsely blame that damper....

1. The flywheel at some point was not put back on in the correct orientation for that engine.
2. The driveshaft was taken apart without marking it... and was put back in not in the balanced relationship it came with....

The rubber cracks and eventually you can end up with a metal ring clanking away on your propshaft. Subjectively I guess it sounds better with it removed - that means (to some) it is better when it is gone!

I'd argue if it was meant to be there it would be better with a new one - but these things are so damn expensive for what they are I can sympathise with the just take it off attitude (right up to the point where owners start complaining about drive line vibrations!)...

leathermang · #39 11-30-2014, 07:00 AM

So they are available ?
How much do they cost ?

t walgamuth · #40 11-30-2014, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

It is as easy as understanding why they did something and compensating for it.

For example, we know they made up internal balance on flywheels and driven plates on an unknown number of 617s. Whether you have a 28 or 38lb flywheel, you need to know if they did this on your application.

To compensate, you mark crank to original driven plate, and have your 28 OR 38 lb flywheel match balanced to what was on there. I have come across two 617s that have a biased driven plate balance of a few grams off. It doesnt matter if they put a 100lb flywheel on there or 2lb, if the biased balance isnt matched, you will have vibration.

Once that is done, your new flywheel has the same specific balance built in from the factory.

The benz engineers put a 10lb heavier flywheel on the 617s because the heavier the flywheel, the smoother the power transfer and the easier to shift, but on the other hand, the greater the accel loss, and the slower the takeoff. Since these were slow diesel luxury cars, i absolutely see the motivation towards smooth power application vs performance.

Lightening flywheels is a very common performance mod in many circles. I dont consider a 28lb flywheel light, but at 10lbs less than to 38lb, it makes the performance slightly peppier. If the biased balance is retained (IF the engine had it), then you shouldnt have any problems.

Personally i had no vibration issues and no problem with a 28lb flywheel. What was slightly surprising for me, was compensating for turbo lag when it kicks in in how i held throttle position. The car would take off a few seconds in gear, great fun.

I agree with this and with Jim. I did the stick conversion on my 300CD with the 28# flywheel and was very happy with it. Perfectly smooth at most rpm with a slight shudder felt at certain rpm (maybe around 3000?). The shudder would not be noticed unless you had your hand on the shifter.

I also did the conversion on the other car using a 38# flywheel. Lovely to be sure but does the slight shudder put me off of having the advantage of the simpler and more economical stick? no way!

t walgamuth · #41 11-30-2014, 09:08 AM

[QUOTE=panZZer;3413596]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

Im not sure how the machine shop does the job, there is some trial and error from what I understand. Ive been told a couple times but always forget

If you simply bolt on a new flywheel you have potentially 12 positions until you get it right. Thats a heck of a lot of work with the car having to be drivable between every position so you can see if the vibration exists or not.

Makes way more sense to mark the crank to the existing automatic flywheel (driven plate), and drop off the driven plate and manual flywheel at a machine shop. You do not need to provide the torque converter.

Here is a pic in one of my swaps that shows a 38lb flywheel below a driven plate after they were match balanced. The machinist said the driven plate was a few grams weighted, so he duplicated the weighted side on the 38lb flywheel for me. This was a 1979 300SD 617.

Here is a video of a driven plate out of a 1983 300D 617 that shows a definite heavy spot. (I was trying to figure out why the thing was undrivable in a swap application). My problem is the stock flywheel was weighted, AND my replacement flywheel was weighted, and I got the bias completely off making a horrendous vibration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAX6FiShQjQ

For what its worth, ive come across this phenomena twice personally out of 4 conversions so im at 50%, but people have done a bunch of conversions and not encountered this at all. My take is that its worth it to be sure, if its a neutral balance, thats great, and if it wasnt, at least you made sure.

I have never come across this on a 240 616 though. I think it is a 617 quirk. The number one thing is you have to mark the crank to the driven plate before you move it, otherwise you are in for the 12 position nightmare, which is not practical at all. My one complaint with mercedes about this is why isnt the crank bolt pattern asymmetrical so you can only put a flywheel on one way? plenty of other manufacturers do this, and it eliminates the entire possibility of losing your reference point[/QUOTE

It seems around 82-3 they started neutral balancing the engines.

Good post but I disagree with your last statement. My 84 Euro 280e had a match balanced flywheel.

Lucas · #42 11-30-2014, 12:47 PM

Dang it. I thought I found an easy route.

In regard to the driveshaft piece that's hard to get, I should mention my buddy has a 3D printer and does prototyping for making molds.
If someone is ambitious and can make a mold, we can print the part to create it from.

Or if there's anything made of hard plastic, or can be, it's on like donkey kong.

I have a little rubber piece that holds my shutoff cable on the IP. I had one that was gone, and one on its way. He scanned it with a device made from a playstation, the device that sees you and inputs what you are doing to the game. Printed it out of hard plastic and it works.

I'm worried about the vibration and will hand cut one out of rubber eventually.

JB3 · #43 11-30-2014, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Good post but I disagree with your last statement. My 84 Euro 280e had a match balanced flywheel.

Last statement was panzzer

Stretch · #44 12-01-2014, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

So they are available ?
How much do they cost ?

Here's the W201 / W124 variation

Car Part FEBI BILSTEIN 10650, Vibration Damper, propshaft

With loads of alternatives other than Febi - cost starts at about 100 euros over here

Here's the W123 variant

Car Part FEBI BILSTEIN 10735, Vibration Damper, propshaft

Also with loads of alternatives other than Febi (who are crap) - costs again start at about 100 euros over here.

leathermang · #45 12-01-2014, 06:37 AM

It shows this...
COUPE 1977-1985
KOMBI Estate 1977-1985
Saloon 1976-1985

Does that include my four door ? Is that one of those boot/trunk deals ?