preaching to the choir - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

dkr · #16 12-24-2014, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

Well gee, that was useful. Care to elaborate?

Well, if you drive around and watch how other people drive, all you need to do is consider that those people on the road are using their grey matter to make car buying decisions. You can apply the same logic with many other things. The fact is that many Americans are cognitively challenged as well as superbly corpulent.

Dkr.

ROLLGUY · #17 12-24-2014, 11:28 AM

In America, the percentage of Diesel powered truck sales has grown, and continues to do so. Many more truck buyers are going for the Diesel option, and have no problem paying for it. With the popularity of off-road toys and their "toy haulers", the need for a powerful and fuel saving tow rig makes a Diesel as a "no-brainer". The Diesel pusher RV market has exploded in past years as well, and everything is getting bigger and longer. Diesel only makes sense in these cases. When the Ford V10 came out, everybody and their brother lined up to buy one in a motorhome, truck or van. Now, mostly all you see in trucks and larger motorhomes is Diesel power. Yes the rental truck market is still stuck mostly on gas, but that might be only because of the typical user knows gasoline as fuel. The rental companies don't want the users to put the wrong fuel in their trucks. Besides, the added cost of a Diesel engine in a rental truck that only has a short life in a rental fleet, does not make economical sense. The BBC article did not address the popularity of trucks with Diesel power in America, and had they done so, the article might have been written totally different IMO.

Tmadia · #18 12-24-2014, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkr

Well, if you drive around and watch how other people drive, all you need to do is consider that those people on the road are using their grey matter to make car buying decisions. You can apply the same logic with many other things. The fact is that many Americans are cognitively challenged as well as superbly corpulent.

Dkr.

Aside from these idiotic statements, the premium that you pay for a diesel option, as well as the higher cost of diesel itself makes it very difficult to justify economically. If one were towing quite a bit or traveling long distances for work then it may be possible to make the equation work.

97 SL320 · #19 12-24-2014, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY

Yes the rental truck market is still stuck mostly on gas, but that might be only because of the typical user knows gasoline as fuel. The rental companies don't want the users to put the wrong fuel in their trucks. Besides, the added cost of a Diesel engine in a rental truck that only has a short life in a rental fleet, does not make economical sense.

U haul rented trucks with diesels in the late 80's, I rented a Ford box van back then. I checked a year ago into renting a large box truck and no diesels were to be found. They might be available through commercial rental houses.

The payoff for a diesel is fuel mileage, something that does not benefit the owner of a rental fleet. Given the rental trucks don't get loaded like a delivery truck, a gas motor works just fine.

The down sides are service calls when it runs out of fuel / miss fuels, driver does not pre glow and cranks the battery out, does not plug in over night.

Jeremy5848 · #20 12-24-2014, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Blowback from the disasterous GM diesels of the eighties.

An entire generation was turned off diesels by that move.

dkr · #21 12-24-2014, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tmadia

Aside from these idiotic statements, the premium that you pay for a diesel option, as well as the higher cost of diesel itself makes it very difficult to justify economically. If one were towing quite a bit or traveling long distances for work then it may be possible to make the equation work.

I spent $4000 for 31-year old car with 108K miles. I've put 20,000 miles on it thus far this year and about $2000 into repair. It gets 28-29 mpg on the highway. I plan to do the same next year. Engine should be good for another 300,000-400,000 miles+ if I take care of it. The maintenance is mostly simple and DIY with no drivetrain-related electronics. Is there much more to compute?

Even if it was a new car, I would buy a VW TDI. The equation is the same thing -- you get better mileage than any other car including a Prius and the drivetrain lasts longer...

I just bought a used class A motorhome with a 3.9L 4-cylinder Isuzu turbodiesel. My fuel economy is a realistic 14-15mpg at cruising speed while my last motorhome with a Chevy V-8 gas would get 6-8mpg. A properly built and maintained diesel will last longer than the gas engine.

Dkr.

interzonearts · #22 12-24-2014, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

This is something that I find quite strange.

In a way what you say seems to make sense, however, the average number of miles driven in the US and Australia and Canada and in most parts of Europe is pretty similar - most people in most first world countries drive their personal vehicles an average of about 10,000 to 14,000 miles per year.

(company cars are different - they go further but I bet their total usages are also quite similar across the first world - if the distances get too great => "we" fly)

"Little" Holland is a bit of an exception - here it is about 13000 km per year => 8000 miles. I think this is due to really good cycle lanes and a persistent effort of the authorities to make car driving as miserable and as impossible and as expensive as possible.

That is interesting, I looked up the numbers online it it does seem pretty close. Must be something in the water that makes people drive around for no apparent reason

ROLLGUY · #23 12-24-2014, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

U haul rented trucks with diesels in the late 80's, I rented a Ford box van back then. I checked a year ago into renting a large box truck and no diesels were to be found. They might be available through commercial rental houses.

The payoff for a diesel is fuel mileage, something that does not benefit the owner of a rental fleet. Given the rental trucks don't get loaded like a delivery truck, a gas motor works just fine.

The down sides are service calls when it runs out of fuel / miss fuels, driver does not pre glow and cranks the battery out, does not plug in over night.

Agreed. The moving truck rental business is huge here in the states, and if the rental businesses did use more Diesels, that would add thousands of units every couple years to Diesel powered truck sales. However, if you want to rent a medium duty (24'-26' box truck), you won't find a gasser available for rent. Your statement "Given the rental trucks don't get loaded like a delivery truck, a gas motor works just fine" I find to be very true. I recently drove a U-Haul box van for a guy (helped him move), and I was impressed with the power and economy of the Ford cutaway (van cab with moving van body). It definitely makes perfect sense to stick with a gasser for that type of vehicle.....Rich

t walgamuth · #24 12-25-2014, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkr

I spent $4000 for 31-year old car with 108K miles. I've put 20,000 miles on it thus far this year and about $2000 into repair. It gets 28-29 mpg on the highway. I plan to do the same next year. Engine should be good for another 300,000-400,000 miles+ if I take care of it. The maintenance is mostly simple and DIY with no drivetrain-related electronics. Is there much more to compute?

Even if it was a new car, I would buy a VW TDI. The equation is the same thing -- you get better mileage than any other car including a Prius and the drivetrain lasts longer...

I just bought a used class A motorhome with a 3.9L 4-cylinder Isuzu turbodiesel. My fuel economy is a realistic 14-15mpg at cruising speed while my last motorhome with a Chevy V-8 gas would get 6-8mpg. A properly built and maintained diesel will last longer than the gas engine.

Dkr.

Tell us more about your motorhome please? I have never heard of an Isuzu powered mh.

tbomachines · #25 12-25-2014, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Tell us more about your motorhome please? I have never heard of an Isuzu powered mh.

I see them here and there, smaller motor homes from the 80s and possibly early 90s. They weren't like the box trucks but regret based on their half ton pickup. Used to see some small uhaul trucks with the same setup.

Sent from an abacus

dkr · #26 12-25-2014, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Tell us more about your motorhome please? I have never heard of an Isuzu powered mh.

It's a 1994 Safari Trek. Safari built them from 1991-1994 with the Isuzu drivetrain from the NPR box truck. Some of the owners have racked up in excess of 200,000 miles. They get the best fuel economy of any class A motorhome ever and have a small cult-like following. They made an ingenious interior space with a patented design (electromagic bed). Essentially, there is no "bedroom" but a queen size bed in the front that lowers down from the ceiling. They are also unique for being built with aircraft-grade aluminum, a fiberglass roof and a painted mural on the back. They were built to quality specs unlike most motorhomes of the era. The downside is that they are a little underpowered, but have a top speed of 70mph and can cruise at 65mph on level ground. Despite the underpowered 4-cylinder engine, many owners tow small 4WD vehicles like Jeeps with them.

This is the one I bought: http://www.nwtfc.com/treks/1994/1994_trek.htm
Dkr.

Tmadia · #27 12-25-2014, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkr

I spent $4000 for 31-year old car with 108K miles. I've put 20,000 miles on it thus far this year and about $2000 into repair. It gets 28-29 mpg on the highway. I plan to do the same next year. Engine should be good for another 300,000-400,000 miles+ if I take care of it. The maintenance is mostly simple and DIY with no drivetrain-related electronics. Is there much more to compute?

Even if it was a new car, I would buy a VW TDI. The equation is the same thing -- you get better mileage than any other car including a Prius and the drivetrain lasts longer...

I just bought a used class A motorhome with a 3.9L 4-cylinder Isuzu turbodiesel. My fuel economy is a realistic 14-15mpg at cruising speed while my last motorhome with a Chevy V-8 gas would get 6-8mpg. A properly built and maintained diesel will last longer than the gas engine.

Dkr.

Yes, you could actually try computing instead of insulting.

Lets take an average commuter, 12000 miles per year, and compare a VW jetta TDI to a jetta gasser.

TDI get 34 mpg combined, diesel costs $3.39 near me, equals $1196 per year.

Gasser gets 30 mps combined, gas costs $2.69 near me, equals $1076 per year.

So you lose money on the cost of diesel, and you paid a $6000 premium for the diesel engine. So for the first year you are $6120 in the hole and climbing, your only hope is that the cost of gas increases significantly. So yeah, the average person can not make that work.

Your used car special deals of special use vehicles are not what creates a demand for new diesel in this country.

Fuel Economy of 2014 Volkswagen Jetta

dkr · #28 12-25-2014, 02:16 PM

That's exactly the short-sighted approach I would expect. The car note gets paid off in 4-5 years either way. Which car will still be running at 200,000 miles, 300,000 miles and 400,000 miles? Which one will you want to fix? Which one will you give to your grandson when he first gets his driver's license?

When you buy functional obsolescence, there's no alternative to running it into the ground and buying another one. When you buy something that is made to last, you can keep fixing it.

We're in the middle of the worst economic downturn since the great depression. Wouldn't it make sense to buy (as in own outright) a car that will last forever and that can be DIYed if necessary? And, fuel prices are very volatile. When I bought my first 300D, diesel was $0.20 less per gallon. I don't even bother with those numbers, because they aren't what ultimately counts or stays stable. Your numbers could get completely turned on their head within a few weeks or months with no explanation whatsoever. Why couldn't you just keep driving your 12,000 miles per year * 30 years = 360,000 miles? Why don't we compare the gas to diesel at that rate and see who comes out on top?

Oh, and another point that doesn't make it into your numbers is that the majority of miles driven are by highway/freeway. The TDI gets 42mpg on the highway and if a person drives 75% of their miles on the freeway that would make it a good deal more important than the lesser city fuel economy figures. An average fuel economy is just that -- I don't believe that is indicative of real life usage on a miles driven basis. You can see that on your link where the average user's reported mpg is 39.2 based on REAL LIFE conditions.

Dkr.

interzonearts · #29 12-25-2014, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkr

That's exactly the short-sighted approach I would expect. The car note gets paid off in 4-5 years either way. Which car will still be running at 200,000 miles, 300,000 miles and 400,000 miles? Which one will you want to fix?

When you buy functional obsolescence, there's no alternative to running it into the ground and buying another one. When you buy something that is made to last, you can keep fixing it.

We're in the middle of the worst economic downturn since the great depression. Wouldn't it make sense to buy (as in own outright) a car that will last forever and that can be DIYed if necessary? And, fuel prices are very volatile. When I bought my first 300D, diesel was $0.20 less per gallon. I don't even bother with those numbers, because they aren't what ultimately counts or stays stable. Your numbers could get completely turned on their head within a few weeks or months with no explanation whatsoever. Why couldn't you just keep driving your 12,000 miles per year * 30 years = 360,000 miles? Why don't we compare the gas to diesel at that rate and see who comes out on top?

Dkr.

I don't think that sweeping generalizations that insult over 300 million of people in one sentence are helpful to anybody.

Besides that i see your points clearly and agree with what you're saying in general.

Nobody's mentioned the additional degree of independence that comes from fuel flexibility of some diesel engines.

dkr · #30 12-25-2014, 03:03 PM

Quote:

I don't think that sweeping generalizations that insult over 300 million of people in one sentence are helpful to anybody.

Perhaps you're right. It has been said that the economic downturn is the experience of living the long-term results of short-term decisions. I can't see that anywhere clearer than the car market. Ultimately, we're all at fault for it. We could have demanded more and better and changed our lifestyles and expectations, but instead we want the newest thing that looks good only to dump it in four years for another new toy.

Unfortunately, most people buy based on what the advertising box tells them to. With the pace we are on, we will never have good cars nor will we have anything remotely green or environmental despite what the spinmeisters come up with.

Dkr.