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  #16  
Old 04-29-2015, 06:05 AM
mannys9130's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackerEdgerton View Post
Thanks so much for the feedback.

I admit I'm a little confused here. If the input shaft bearing is making noise, then isn't that because the bearing is failing? If the bearing is failing, then couldn't it eventually disintegrate and cause even more damage? Isn't ignoring it asking for trouble? I don't understand.

I agree on the vibrations... it indicates to me that something rotating and spinning is out of balance, which, if ignored, could possibly become worse and cause additional damage.

I guess I've always held the notion to fix thing quickly after a symptom arises, or to pre-emptively fix an upcoming issue. This has always served me well.

Sincerely,

Packman
Ordinarily you'd be absolutely right. It's just that so many people have reported input shaft bearing noise over the years, and nothing comes of it. The bearings hot noisy early on in their lives. They just stayed that way without any further deterioration or failures. It's like the design promotes a rapid wearing in, and once the bearing reaches a happy wear state, it stops and is just noisy. So, the wanting to replace the input bearing just because of noise is kind of a lost cause.

The vibration is totally different. I'd inspect everything. Flex discs especially. The vibration is a separate and much more pressing issue. The vibration isn't normal or benign and THAT will break something eventually.
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  #17  
Old 04-29-2015, 07:11 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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I agree. The input shaft is always rattly and it is not a sign of imminent failure. Perhaps in some transmissions this would be a concern but not in a MB or a Bmw. The vibration depending on how severe it is may need fixing. Some vibration is unavoidable. It is a four cylinder diesel of pretty large capacity for a car and it will never be really smooth and quiet.
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  #18  
Old 04-29-2015, 09:14 AM
JB3 JB3 is offline
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Im not sure i buy the bad input bearing diagnosis yet, BUT its an old transmission design. See if you can get the part number off the side and look up the exploded diagram in the EPC.

The input shaft bearing should be a basic standard bearing, instead of a tapered roller bearing like in later benz transmissions. IF you have to replace it, it is going to be easier for YOU to do than convince an unwilling shop. With the transmission out, you can pull the input shaft cover, retain any spacers, and the bearing will be right there and extractable.

These are basic, simple gearboxes, but you will get the "we dont work on that" line from shops because they arent familiar, and arent interested in becoming familiar with anything that old and foreign.

Bottom line is you personally can relatively easily take the gearbox apart
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  #19  
Old 04-29-2015, 09:51 AM
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Me me me I know!

Ok, I had a similar problem on my 240d. Tranny grinding and rattling noise when the clutch was up and the car was in neutral. Drove fine. When I pressed the clutch the sound old go away. Sometimes the car wouldn't make the sound at all. Clutch up in neutral would make the noise. I could make it go away sometimes if I pumped the clutch a random number of times.

I posted it here years ago and mostly people said throw out bearing which in reality causes a clutch down whining (not what I had) or they said the German trannies just make noise.

So here is what I found.

My car had 320k and I have no idea how old the clutch was. The guy I bought it from knew how to shift so I bet it had lasted a long time. I'm very light on my clutches especially in a torquey car like my 240d that can crawl off the line without throttle. I take it most guys here know how to save their clutch so this may be your problem too. My clutch was undoubtedly old.

One day my car wouldn't go into gear. No bigs I figured it was a slave cylinder. A week later I changed slave and master and still no go. The clutch had plenty of grab before this happened so I'd didn't get it.

I dropped the trans (1982 240d 4spd) and out pops all those little coil springs. The damper thingies destructed and we're moving around in there. Plenty of meat left on the clutch. They I see the throw out. It had self destructed and collapsed. I drive so gingerly on my clutch I killed the throw out bearing first!

So you may have some damper springs moving around in there. I suspect this could be a problem on old 240d manuals because they don't have enough power to tear up the clutch and they tend to be driven by careful/skilled drivers. How else you gonna squeeze any speed out of that thing? The last thing we want to do is burn some of our precious hp making heat on the pressure plate.

Drop the trans. Or better yet, rent at borescope like stretch said and go in the slave cylinder port.

When I posted this question up several years ago a couple of others had the same issue. It was open and unresolved.
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  #20  
Old 04-29-2015, 10:36 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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At 320k your clutch was likely original equipment. I had those springs in the disc fail on a 240 also, after my 16 year old son started driving it.

I still say make sure of your motor mounts and tranny mounts before doing anything with the tranny. If the drivers have been skilled the tranny probably is not near worn out.

The way to save your t/o bearing is to shift to neutral at a light and let out the clutch.

Nothing lasts forever though and there are wear items in the clutch.....t/o bearing, pressure plates, and discs. The tranny though could easily last 500 to 700k miles imho if driven carefully. Second gear synchros often wear out but if you give it a break in your shifting they last a very long time.

My 82 240 has 320K on it and the tranny shifts like new. When I come to a corner I let off the gas and let the engine slow the car, then when the car is at its slowest I drop it into second or first at the right moment and don't work the synchros at all.
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  #21  
Old 04-29-2015, 11:13 AM
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Thanks again for the thoughtful replies. This all makes sense.

I am pretty easy on the clutch, but I admit I drive the car pretty hard, if that makes sense.

When I shift, I mentally pretend that there is a 'red light' that turns on when the clutch pedal is pressed down. I try to reduce the amount of time that the light is "on". That said, I don't slam the clutch, rather I engage it quickly and smoothly, which is pretty easy to do on a 240D.

Once the gears are engaged, then I will wind the engine up, usually to 3600-4250 RPM before I shift. Before entering a corner, I will downshift before the corner... typically by double-clutching and speed matching the transmission and engine speed on downshift... also easy to do on a 240D. Often I will practice my heel and toe action on corners. It's actually quite do-able on a 240D.

Anyway, my daily drivers have always been manual transmission cars, and the clutches last quite a long time.

Sincerely,

Packman
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  #22  
Old 04-29-2015, 11:16 AM
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Here's the exploded diagram of a 240D manual transmission assembly.

Sincerely,

Packman
Attached Thumbnails
The diagnosis on the Clutch is back... I need advice please-image003.png   The diagnosis on the Clutch is back... I need advice please-image002.png   The diagnosis on the Clutch is back... I need advice please-image001-1-.jpg  
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  #23  
Old 04-29-2015, 11:20 AM
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I see the mention of broken Damper Springs in the Clutch Disk.
I swapped in a 4-spd in the 85 300D, 22K miles later I changed the trans for another one thinking I had a bearing problem in the Trans.

Getting the Trans in, I kept hitting something and the input shaft wouldn`t fit into the Pilot bearing.

So I pulled the pressure Plate/Disk out, and the pilot bearing had come out when I pilled the trans.

I was putting it back together, and noticed a rattle with the Disk, the 2 larger springs were both broken, and the center metal piece was cracked.

Replaced the Disk, and some day will get this car back on the road.

Our 240 has 375K and have had it for 5 years, so don`t know how old/miles are on it. I do get a noise only when first starting it in the morning. Pushing in on the Clutch peddle a couple times and it goes away.
Iam thinking it is the T/O bearing.

I don`t hear any Input Shaft Trans bearing noise I see mentioned above on the 240.


Also as Tom mentioned, I always kick it in natural when at a traffic light. holding in on the peddle puts pressure on the Pressure plate springs and wear on the T/O bearing.
When slowing down coming into a traffic light, I just push the lever out of gear w/o using the peddle.
As you let off the power, there is slack in the gears between power and decelerating. This is when I push it out of gear.

Starting out in first, I just get her rolling then go to 2nd. I usually don`t wind them out.
It`s amusing to watch the guy behind me launch his 300hp pos into my trunk the quickly back off.

I get this in the 86 Ford F250 also when shifting between gears on a start. most all cars on the road are automatics and they are all in a hurry.



Charlie
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Last edited by charmalu; 04-29-2015 at 11:34 AM.
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  #24  
Old 04-29-2015, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
At 320k your clutch was likely original equipment. I had those springs in the disc fail on a 240 also, after my 16 year old son started driving it.

I still say make sure of your motor mounts and tranny mounts before doing anything with the tranny. If the drivers have been skilled the tranny probably is not near worn out.

The way to save your t/o bearing is to shift to neutral at a light and let out the clutch.

Nothing lasts forever though and there are wear items in the clutch.....t/o bearing, pressure plates, and discs. The tranny though could easily last 500 to 700k miles imho if driven carefully. Second gear synchros often wear out but if you give it a break in your shifting they last a very long time.

My 82 240 has 320K on it and the tranny shifts like new. When I come to a corner I let off the gas and let the engine slow the car, then when the car is at its slowest I drop it into second or first at the right moment and don't work the synchros at all.
I had a loose trans mount when I got the car. My TO bearing may have gotten worn by a stop and go section on my commute. I shift to neutral clutch up at intersections. Forgot to mention, after the new clutch went in the trans shifted like new. It was a really tough trans. Synchros worked great too but I don't jam on them much with my driving style (synchros we don't need no stinking synchros!)


The input shaft bearing on the tranny is a beast. It can prolly take a lot of abuse.


Charlie,

My car would also sound better if I pumped the clutch, I guess my TO bearing and my little damper springs were toast. Sad thing is when the new clutch went in it shifted and ran great. Then the AC went out and the family insisted a car must have AC...so it got sold and I drive the SD.
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  #25  
Old 04-29-2015, 12:30 PM
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What shape is your car in? What did the guy want for the old trans? If you'll keep the car and the price is reasonable, build the other trans and install a new clutch with new hydros when this trans or clutch goes down. We all know you want an excuse to learn how to build a trans - and buy a few pullers.
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  #26  
Old 04-29-2015, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkman View Post
What shape is your car in? What did the guy want for the old trans? If you'll keep the car and the price is reasonable, build the other trans and install a new clutch with new hydros when this trans or clutch goes down. We all know you want an excuse to learn how to build a trans - and buy a few pullers.
Hi guys,

The Manilla Beige 240D is in remarkable condition for its age. The engine seems to have terrific compression and very very little blow-by. (the oil filler cap only dances a little bit). It starts even more easily than the White 240D (see sig).

The seller has agreed to accept $350 for the tranny. It's out of a 79, so I don't know if it is a steel or aluminum housing, but he has agreed to sell it to me with the shifter, the bell housing and the odometer cable.

I admit, part of me DOES want to be able to pull the old tranny apart and fix it. I realize based on the feedback here that the tranny may not need 'fixing' at all, and that a little noisy bearing might be completely normal. I also know that the White 240D has a quiet bearing... assuming that's the noise I'm hearing.

I'm wondering whether I should build up the tranny and buy a new clutch, and when this one goes out, just swap it out. The other half of me wants to have this one shift perfectly (i.e. get rid of the noise and the vibration) and then daily drive this for the duration. I prefer to get something to an excellent condition and then keep it there. That has always been my MO. With the Manilla Beige 240D, I believe it will be within financial reach to get it to 'excellent', and if I do most of the work, then I can keep it there for years with relatively little effort.

Sincerely,

Packman
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Last edited by PackerEdgerton; 04-29-2015 at 02:32 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-29-2015, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackerEdgerton View Post
..

The seller has agreed to accept $350 for the tranny. It's out of a 79, so I don't know if it is a steel or aluminum housing, but he has agreed to sell it to me with the shifter, the bell housing and the odometer cable.

...
If it's original, it's an Iron slope back box. Be sure to get the shifter rods also, as they are different than the aluminum box.
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  #28  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:52 PM
JB3 JB3 is offline
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Originally Posted by DeliveryValve View Post
If it's original, it's an Iron slope back box. Be sure to get the shifter rods also, as they are different than the aluminum box.
X2. Get the shifter too. Transmission is useless without that complex shifter assembly. Good to have a spare and spare shift rods
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  #29  
Old 04-29-2015, 06:01 PM
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliveryValve View Post
If it's original, it's an Iron slope back box. Be sure to get the shifter rods also, as they are different than the aluminum box.

Thanks for the helpful hints.

I have asked that the following be included in the sale:

1) Transmission with bell housing.
2) Shifter Rods
3) Shifter
4) Odometer cable.
5) Slave Cylinder

I think that should cover anything that might have changed, yes?

Thanks,

Packman
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  #30  
Old 04-29-2015, 07:43 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Might as well ask for the clutch disc and pp. Never know they could be recently replaced.
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