Govt. clamping down on diesels - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

97 SL320 · #31 07-26-2015, 07:56 AM

Your open beaker test is unfair and not representative of what happens in an engine. In a beaker test you are not mixing air / atomizing fuel. I suspect that the paraffinic fuel is acting more like a wickless candle where a layer of fuel is vaporizing and mixing with air before complete combustion occurs.

This test is similar to taking acetylene and hydrogen running each gas through an open pipe then lighting the end. Acetylene will give off huge amounts of carbon but the hydrogen side won't.

Regardless of all of this, the fuel costs involved in making bio , renewable , or extracting natural oil must be considered to be a fair comparison as well

tjts1 · #32 07-26-2015, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

Your open beaker test is unfair and not representative of what happens in an engine. In a beaker test you are not mixing air / atomizing fuel. I suspect that the paraffinic fuel is acting more like a wickless candle where a layer of fuel is vaporizing and mixing with air before complete combustion occurs.

This test is similar to taking acetylene and hydrogen running each gas through an open pipe then lighting the end. Acetylene will give off huge amounts of carbon but the hydrogen side won't.

Then you should read through this 3.5 year 50 million KM fleet study (180 page pdf) to draw your own conclusions.

I'll leave this right here to wet your appetite

Happy reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

Regardless of all of this, the fuel costs involved in making bio , renewable , or extracting natural oil must be considered to be a fair comparison as well

As previously mentioned, renewable diesel is going for between $2.80-$3.00 per gallon, on par or slightly less than #2 diesel in this market. How much is straight biodiesel going for in your neck of the woods? Renewable diesel is made from food waste and biomass waste, stuff we generally throw away. Biodiesel is made from food crops hence the much higher cost. The downside to renewable diesel is that you can't brew it in your garage, it requires a refinery.

Biodiesel's dirty little NOx secret has been known for a while even those some people still choose to ignore it.

Quote:

The average NO emissions were higher at a statistically significant level for the B20 and higher biodiesel blends compared to the CARB diesel for all the test cycle/engine combinations, with the exception of the animal-based biodiesel on the UDDS cycle for the 2006 Cummins engine.

NOx increased with biodiesel blend level. NOx increases ranged from 1.5% to 6.9% for B20, 6.4% to 18.2% for B50, and 14.1% to 47.1% for B100, with the magnitude of this effect differing for different feedstocks, engines, and cycles. The soy-based B20 and higher biodiesel blends showed higher increases in NOx emissions for the different blend levels, test cycles, and engines, in comparison with the animal-based biodiesel blends. Differences between the NOx percentage increases for the soy-based and animal-based biodiesel were statistically significant for each of the cycle/blend level combinations on both engines.

NOx emissions also differed as a function of cycle power for both engines.

NOx reductions with the renewable diesel fuel (NExBTL) ranged from .9%-4.9% for R20, 5.4%-10.2% for R50, and 9.9%-18.1% for R100 over all the cycles.

The GTL diesel fuel showed reductions of 5.2% for the GTL50 and 8.7% for the GTL100. Over the FTP cycle, the NOx reductions for the renewable and GTL diesels were comparable for the 50% and 100% fuels, but the GTL fuel did not show statistically significant reductions at the 20% blend.

dkr · #33 07-26-2015, 10:36 AM

I will tell you that Propelfuels site is not accurate.

I tried using their site to go to three biodiesel sites near where I live.

On one, the entire station was out of business. On another, they did not sell diesel or biodiesel. On another, they did sell biodiesel but the pump was out of order.

Just because it says so on the internet doesn't make it real. In addition, there still are not enough pump locations to make filling up a regular event unless you happen to live close to one of their locations. In each one of the locations mentioned, I had to drive in excess of 7+ miles out of my way to attempt to fill-up.

Dkr.

tjts1 · #34 07-26-2015, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkr

I will tell you that Propelfuels site is not accurate.

I tried using their site to go to three biodiesel sites near where I live.

On one, the entire station was out of business. On another, they did not sell diesel or biodiesel. On another, they did sell biodiesel but the pump was out of order.

Just because it says so on the internet doesn't make it real.

Dkr.

That's because propel no longer sells biodiesel, they switched all their locations to renewable diesel in the last couple of months. It started in NorCal back in january and worked their way south. See the HPR thread.

97 SL320 · #35 07-26-2015, 11:47 AM

You are missing my point on both counts, I've made no judgement one way or another whether that any of these fuels is better than another.

I was stating that the beaker test has marginal validity and that the_actual_ cost to produce any fuel must be taken into account. Your own post 20 states that renewable diesel gets mandated subsidies in order to be price competitive with regular diesel.

There are certain hot button topics that if anyone even slightly challenges or wants to use good science to explore, the zealot instantly thinks they are are anti ( insert cause here ) .

""
Renewable diesel (98% concentration) is between $2.80-$3 per gallon here. Its priced to compete directly with straight #2. The state has setup a market where

___ petroleum manufacturers are required to subsidize renewable diesel ____

and offer pump space at existing stations (Chevron, 76 etc). Its a shame other states don't have similar laws. ""

tjts1 · #36 07-26-2015, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

You are missing my point on both counts, I've made no judgement one way or another whether that any of these fuels is better than another.

I was stating that the beaker test has marginal validity and that the_actual_ cost to produce any fuel must be taken into account. Your own post 20 states that renewable diesel gets mandated subsidies in order to be price competitive with regular diesel.

There are certain hot button topics that if anyone even slightly challenges or wants to use good science to explore, the zealot instantly thinks they are are anti ( insert cause here ) .

""
Renewable diesel (98% concentration) is between $2.80-$3 per gallon here. Its priced to compete directly with straight #2. The state has setup a market where

___ petroleum manufacturers are required to subsidize renewable diesel ____

and offer pump space at existing stations (Chevron, 76 etc). Its a shame other states don't have similar laws. ""

The petroleum industry receives vast subsidies from both the federal and state governments every year. They have been for over a century. Forcing them to share pump space with biofuels and purchase RINs in a carbon market is hardly a major aberation of an already NOT free market.
http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

Quote:

A new report by Oil Change International, Cashing in on All of the Above: U.S. Fossil Fuel Production Subsidies under Obama, demonstrates the huge and growing amount of subsidies going to the fossil fuel industry in the U.S. every year. In 2013, the U.S. federal and state governments gave away $21.6 billion in subsidies for oil, gas, and coal exploration and production.

The value of fossil fuel exploration and production subsidies from the federal government have increased by 45 percent since President Obama took office in 2009 – from $12.7 billion to a current total of $18.5 billion

And thats just the tip of the iceberg. American privately owned and publicly subsidized oil companies are the exception to the rule. The vast majority of the world oil market is made up of government owned and government run monopolies. The C in OPEC cartel stands for Countries not free market Corporations. So knowing that the world wide fossil fuel market is government subsidized and riggged, do you expect the new bio fuels start ups to compete without any government support? Thats just silly. We pay for fossil fuels in many different ways most of which are not readily apparent. The price at the pump is just the most obvious, visible example.