240D Non Pneumatic IP? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

AcIdBuRn · #16 08-10-2015, 11:28 PM

It's a 4spd car so no issue there... And shouldn't be too hard to bump the fuel up a good bit. Fuel rate is determined by quite a few things... Delivery valves, governor settings, injector size, etc.. most of which can be changed. Lean isn't an issue as diesels work on the opposite side of stoich... The leaner the mix, the cooler the EGTs. At the point of heavy smoke however, cylinder temps are dangerous even with piston oil squirters, etc. Basically, the idea is to keep EGTs at or close to what they are stock. To make power.. More fuel is required which drives EGTs up. To bring them back in check, more air is needed (boost).

Adding a bit of boost to an engine isn't going to suddenly cause catastrophic failure (if done properly and boost kept at a reasonable level). What it will do is decrease its life expectancy in proportion to the added power... Same goes for any modification that increases power... The engine is engineered to last x amount of miles while producing x amount of power..

Do I expect the engine to last another 300k while boosted? No.. But I'm quite certain its not going to suddenly fail soon after being boosted.

EGTs are the main concern when it comes to boosting an NA diesel... That and overall cylinder pressure due to higher static compression. With proper tuning, EGTs and cylinder temps shouldn't be an issue... And keeping boost low should keep the head gasket happy.

So now the question is... How is the pump fed oil? Is there a mechanical pump that is simply fed via oil line? That would make life easier for sure.

Thanks for the input
-Chris

mannys9130 · #17 08-11-2015, 02:03 AM

I think your best option is to swap in a 616 without the pneumatic governor. Get one at the junkyard, throw it on a stand, do your fabricating, and swap it in. That's a $200 solution.

NZScott · #18 08-11-2015, 04:48 AM

I believe your American W123 diesel model cars were all fitted with MW pumps, which are fed oil externally, so go for a W123 240D. Fun part is tapping the supply gallery and sump return (if required?)

leathermang · #19 08-11-2015, 08:26 AM

I think in fuel delivery you have left off the cam type mechanism I think exists INSIDE the fuel injection pump....
Do you have the Bosch manual on Fuel Injection for approximately those years ?

AcIdBuRn · #20 08-11-2015, 08:45 AM

No but I could get it. I've been inside multiple pumps and yes there are internal parts to the pump that contribute to fuel output... However you don't have to change ALL of the parts on the pump to increase fuel output.

As far as buying a 616... No local yards have any... And the last pull a part in my area just went full service which sucks.

Thanks for the info on the w123 chassis 240. I'll look into it more.

Thanks guys
-Chris

leathermang · #21 08-11-2015, 09:02 AM

What I was trying to say and not very well.... is that the rate of increase of fuel must be correlated to the **** increasing rate of increase**** due to the physics of the increase in turbo efficiency as rpms' rise.... that the air increase from the turbo is not a straight line and the fuel increase has to match that curve to get the desired extra power by providing the needed fuel...

I just think there is a ' cam' inside which will be different with a turbo...

AcIdBuRn · #22 08-11-2015, 09:52 AM

I see what you are saying... sorta along the lines of cam duration, etc..

The cam most likely delivers more fuel in a shorter amount of time for the turbo pump then the NA

I don't think that'll be an issue for the minimal amount of boost I plan to run. I also may swap on the ALDA which increases fuel based on boost pressure instead of the "NA" ALA which doesn't use a boost reference.

The best bet would probably be to get the pump and ALDA and take it to the shop and have it bench tuned to turbo specs.

First up is locating a workable pump.. can anyone verify that the 123 cars all use a line fed oiling system for the pump? How about the oil return?

Thanks again guys.
-Chris

leathermang · #23 08-11-2015, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcIdBuRn

......

The cam most likely delivers more fuel in a shorter amount of time for the turbo pump then the NA.....
I don't think that'll be an issue for the minimal amount of boost I plan to run. ....
-Chris

It probably won't be an issue.... but if one steps back and looks at the really bigger picture.... you are starting out with an engine which makes almost no power anyway....and saying ahead of time you are not expecting much increase in power......LOL
You could get this same amount of power while keeping the reliability by swapping in a Five cylinder... but that would not keep you out of the bars at night.... LOL so keep on trucking..... this project will......

AcIdBuRn · #24 08-11-2015, 10:18 AM

Lol... I just like the challenge. Sourcing an engine here is harder then in other areas apparently.. Only real option is to buy a parts car and for the most part, they are "parts cars" due to engine issues. I'm also not looking for loads of power but I believe the engine has more potential then most give it credit for.. That and the I'm sure that some who have attempted this have failed or destroyed an engine due to piss poor tuning, etc..

I like fabrication.. I have the material and parts to do the build for next to nothing.. just need the right pump.

leathermang · #25 08-11-2015, 10:22 AM

Yes..... it is likely the engine has way more power than it is giving up.... those German MB engineers with millions upon millions in R and D money probably missed something basic..... LOL

dude99 · #26 08-11-2015, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Fuel rate is determined by quite a few things... Delivery valves, governor settings, injector size, etc.. most of which can be changed

Different injectors, delivery valves, and governor settings really won't make much of a difference in these cars. The only real option to make any meaningful power increase is to get your pump built with bigger elements which is about $1200 last time I checked. Although I have never heard of anyone building a 240D pump... not even sure if anyone makes elements for it....

Putting a turbo on it will make it a little zippier, however many that have gone that route later just put in a 300D engine as it makes more power in stock form than the 240D does with a turbo for less money and less work.

AcIdBuRn · #27 08-11-2015, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Yes..... it is likely the engine has way more power than it is giving up.... those German MB engineers with millions upon millions in R and D money probably missed something basic..... LOL

So what you believe is that every OEM maximizes the performance of the engines they use? If thats the case, why is there an aftermarket? Why did they offer bolt on turbochargers for this engine if it did nothing?

In my daily, I've got a compound turbo'd 4bt making triple the power it came with from the factory.. but thats not possible according to you because the engineers with their millions of dollars in R&D wouldn't leave such power potential on the table.

An argument for boosting NA diesels.. 90% of the 7.3 IDIs Ford put out were NA... turbocharged by the dealerships using aftermarket equipment... and millions of them died tragic deaths only a few hundred miles into their lives... lol.. you guys crack me up.

AcIdBuRn · #28 08-11-2015, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude99

Different injectors, delivery valves, and governor settings really won't make much of a difference in these cars. The only real option to make any meaningful power increase is to get your pump built with bigger elements which is about $1200 last time I checked. Although I have never heard of anyone building a 240D pump... not even sure if anyone makes elements for it....

Putting a turbo on it will make it a little zippier, however many that have gone that route later just put in a 300D engine as it makes more power in stock form than the 240D does with a turbo for less money and less work.

This is true... and if I had a source local for a good running 300d engine.. I might lean more towards doing it..

But.. I have everything sitting in my garage.. no purchase needed (other then a used pump)... just fabrication which I enjoy.

Not arguing that it would be better to swap the 5 cyl turbo engine.

dude99 · #29 08-11-2015, 10:49 AM

While its true the north American spec ones weren't truly optimized (the euro spec ones were faster due to fewer emissions regulations). There was the RaJay turbo kit for these, but you had to be very carful with them as the EGT's could get out of control easily and start melting things.

When Mercedes turbo'd the OM617 they changed A LOT of internal components, so much so that despite outwardly looking like the earlier NA spec ones, they were internally very different.

When I still had my 1979 30D NA I did a lot of research on putting a turbo on it, it really is just not worth the time and effort for the meager power increase you get with low boost and the substantially shorter engine life you'll get.

Your 4bt as far as I know was always a turbo motor (I could be wrong, I'm not that familiar with them) and is therefore designed to handle a lot more internal stress and temperature extremes than a non-turbo engine would. Sort of comparing apples to oranges here...

You really would be best served by getting a 617 turbo motor and swapping that in to build horse power with... the 616 is just not a good starting point.

However, if you are serious about forging ahead with this anyways I would suggest you pop over here http://superturbodiesel.com/std/ They might be able to help you further.

leathermang · #30 08-11-2015, 10:51 AM

LOL,
After markets exist because people will buy things...
many times out of HOPE ....Hope caused by good marketing... not realistic physics...
First off is the fact that a Diesel is SO efficient in the first place.... yes... a properly designed combo of Diesel and TURBO is pretty much ' the cat's meow' ....
You keep worrying about others impressions... just do what ever you want to do with your engine... hopefully you can and will take good measurements so you can compare before and after.... and learn lots of stuff in the mean time...