Just looked at a 240D, could use advise - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

spliteye · #1 08-14-2015, 01:53 AM

Hello everyone,

its been a while since I made a post. I'm a bit tired as well, so please excuse me if I sound like a dolt. I'm finally back in the market for a Mercedes diesel. So, I went and looked at a 240D today.

The car was surprisingly clean. The original owner is selling it, she is in her 90s. It's a 1983 with 166K miles. The body had a couple dings, but nothing serious. The paint was in good shape, mainly just had some cracking. The interior was a definite 9/10.

The car is an automatic. I know that the automatics are slower and that manual transmissions are more reliable, but I have a bad left leg and I don't think a manual is in the cards for me. When I drove the car, I noticed that it shifted from 1st to 2nd at what must have been two or three miles per hour at 1/2 to 2/3 throttle. Is this normal? The transmission didn't slip, but it did shift fairly hard and kind of jolted the car a bit.

The car was very slow. Yeah, I know, its a 240D, but I watched a video online of a guy with an automatic 240D hitting 60 in just about a minute. The car I just drove did fine after 30 or so, but the start was horrid, way slower than the car in that video. I was thinking this could have to do with the extremely low shift points?

The engine also had blowby. The oil cap danced around quite a bit when I did the test (understandably so with how the engine vibrated). A fair amount of smoke billowed out. To the engines defense, for the last 5 years it has only seen about a thousand miles a year and that's all been driving to her retirement community's pool house and to the store. I doubt the car has seen the freeway (or over 35 mph) more than a few times the past several years. It also has been sitting most of this year. Would some freeway runs help this?

From what I have told you, what are your opinions of this car? Is it worth pursuing? Any input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Dan

uberwasser · #2 08-14-2015, 02:11 AM

Two things -

There are some differences in equipped transmissions between W123 models and it can be hard to keep track of. Early W123's were equipped with transmissions that start out in 2nd unless manually put in to first by moving the shift lever, while a stop, to L and then back to D (or stomping on the throttle to engage the kick down). This was designed to avoid what you describe - a jerky, quick change from 1st to 2nd thanks to the steeper gearing of the early non-turbo cars.

Then later on the turbodiesels were equipped with transmissions that, when stopped, waited in 2nd gear until the throttle pedal is touched at which time they would immediately shift to 1st. This was to give good acceleration off the line but prevent "tugging" on the brakes while at a stop.

For years those were the only two modes I'd read about or experienced but I've since learned that some 240D's in the early '80's were equipped with transmissions that, despite the very steep gearing, started in 1st leading to quick and somewhat abrupt shifts at each start. This is likely the case. What's happening is that at partial throttle the transmission's vacuum controls are seeking to get in to 2nd as quickly as possible.

Now, to help confirm this, you can help us help you by providing the number on the side of the transmission.

To your engine question, there's a decent chance it just desires some long hard driving to wake it back up. However, the definitive answer is only to be had from doing a compression test. If the owner wants any money for this car (i.e. not "get this out of my yard" pricing) it's not unreasonable to ask to have this done by your mechanic or to do it yourself. It can be done rather un-intrusively by pulling the glow plugs and using the proper sized adapter. If they aren't willing and want decent money still, think twice.

All that said, the car sounds OK but a judgement without knowing more, and knowing the asking price, is probably of limited value. Feel free to gather up some more info and share more. The more we know the more we can help. And pictures speaking a thousand words.

spliteye · #3 08-14-2015, 02:36 AM

Thanks uberwasser. That helps. It's a shame that it shifts so quickly into second. I think it would actually have some guts if it would hold first longer. I should have just provided the craigslist ad. My brain isn't functioning fully right now.

Mercedes Benz 240D 1983

I do believe she would be willing to work on the price. Cars are fairly expensive in my neck of the woods.

Edit: Also, I should have mentioned that the harsh shift was 2-3, the 1-2 was barely noticeable.

t walgamuth · #4 08-14-2015, 06:36 AM

Looks like a very nice car. It will be extremely gutless if it won't hold the lower gears long enough to build up speed. The transmission problems could be simple or complex to fix. Someone here who is better with them than I will no doubt chime in and comment.

I always try to get a stick into these four cylinder diesels whenever the automatics act up. the price is commensurate with a sound drive train so I'd look to buy it for 1500 to 2000 since the body is so nice.

Maxbumpo · #5 08-14-2015, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spliteye

The engine also had blowby. The oil cap danced around quite a bit when I did the test (understandably so with how the engine vibrated). A fair amount of smoke billowed out. To the engines defense, for the last 5 years it has only seen about a thousand miles a year and that's all been driving to her retirement community's pool house and to the store. I doubt the car has seen the freeway (or over 35 mph) more than a few times the past several years. It also has been sitting most of this year. Would some freeway runs help this?

Yes, if it has been driven by the proverbial little old lady, it is quite likely there are massive carbon deposits just waiting to be burned out. Mobil 1 oils have a great reputation for cleaning up carbon deposits, including at the piston rings, but some have also reported good results using Marvel Mystery Oil soaking from the top of the piston (MMO treatment is faster).

Many other things can cause low power, like maladjusted throttle linkage (a quick check is to make sure the injection pump hits the full throttle stop when the accelerator pedal is held to the floor), clogged fuel filters, old injectors, clogged air filter, dragging brakes, tight or loose valves, and as you have already discovered a transmission that doesn't shift right.

Note that the transmission is "tuned" for the engine's power. If the engine is not providing the power that the transmission expects, the shifting can be affected, dramatically at times.

If this car has a bowden cable that controls the transmission shift points, it is probably an easy fix.

Skippy · #6 08-14-2015, 08:09 AM

Looks nice. I normally advocate for a manual transmission, but I understand the bum leg. This one looks worth a try. Italian tune up alone may do it, but if not, I suspect it's fixable for relatively low monetary cost if you're willing to do some work.

75Sv1 · #7 08-14-2015, 09:19 AM

OK, my POV. I have a 4-spd manual. Mine was a dog, and I don't mean a Greyhound. It would take a mile to get to 55 mph. I replaced every part in the throttle linkage . What a difference. Yes, still a bit slow in acceleration compared to other cars. But faster than a '98 Dodge Neon with an Auto. Yeah, I got one of those.
Another thing is injectors. I replaced mine and it made a difference. You can get rebuilt ones off of Ebay. I think under $100.
As for engine cleaning. Might look at a product called Kreen. It is made by Kano Labs. Part you put in the top of the cylinder over night. The other in the oil. They also make Kroil. Sort of like MB Blaster.

My take on the price, maybe a bit high, but that is in very nice to excellent condition from the pics. Look over the engine bay etc, and see how well it has been maintained. I had to replace a lot in mine. My hoses looked like the Chilton Pics for defective hoses. SO that stuff can add up.

Not experience with the autos in these. I did hear about the modulator or something giving problems. Suppose to be an easy fix, if you know what to do. Still, factor that into the price.

Zacharias · #8 08-14-2015, 09:55 AM

Basically this sounds from your description like a car that needs:

- fuel and air filters changed
- injectors overhauled (new nozzles, cleaning and balancing)
- check for air leaks into fuel lines
- change fuel return lines
- change oil
- check that vacuum system is working correctly. The transmission in that model will not shift properly unless the vacuum transmission controls are set up to spec. (Unlike other models that have a Bowden cable or control lever to the trans, this car relies on vacuum only as a trans control). This includes checking vacuum pump output, inspecting all the rubber junctions for cracks or just ballooning from age, and making sure the vacuum control valve (aka VCV, bolted to the injection pump) and white switchover valve(s) on the valve cover are all functional.
- have someone sit in the car (motor off, obviously) and press down on the throttle as you watch to see how the linkage moves. Make sure that when the pedal is floored, the linkage is pushing down all the way at the injection pump. If not, there is an issue with the linkage (which will make the car slower).

Most of all, it sounds like it needs a decent highway run.

The other reason it is so slow may be that it's "stack shifting," running up through the gears too fast to that you are left accelerating from 25 mph in 3rd or 4th. That will be caused by the vacuum issues I mentioned above.

Not to rain on your parade, but any w123 driven by an old lady will probably look great inside. The downside to old ladies is that they tend to do short trips to the supermarket and hairdresser, where the motor never reaches operating temperature. This is just as bad as not changing the oil.

Ask if she has records for the maintenance and ask about her driving cycles. If she does a lot of under-10-mile trips then that motor is a bit 'older' than the indicated mileage.

uberwasser · #9 08-14-2015, 11:29 AM

The car is really pretty.

Search it with a fine tooth combo for rust. If you don't find any, and especially if you can do a compression test and confirm the engine is in decent health, I'd pull the trigger without much hesitation. If it were me. I feel like most of those mechanical issues are going to prove relatively simple, from my personal experience. What is not so simple is trying to return these cars to being so pretty when they've been left to rust, sun bake, etc.

75Sv1 · #10 08-14-2015, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uberwasser

The car is really pretty.

Search it with a fine tooth combo for rust. If you don't find any, and especially if you can do a compression test and confirm the engine is in decent health, I'd pull the trigger without much hesitation. If it were me. I feel like most of those mechanical issues are going to prove relatively simple, from my personal experience. What is not so simple is trying to return these cars to being so pretty when they've been left to rust, sun bake, etc.

Yeah, an OK paint job would be an easy $3K. Yes, I am having mine painted now. Long story, won't go into it. I'd rather deal with mechanical than body paint work. The interior looks great too. Mine didn't look good when I bought it. But I cleaned it. A lot of grunge, deep in the 'grains' of the vinyl. Looks good now though. Also, look at the door seals. I found a set of MBs reasonable. 'Ouch' is the word for genuine MB door seals regularly. Also, a lot of work to be done mechanically other wise.
I am wondering about chain stretch, injector pump timing and how that might effect the op's performance issues?

TnBob · #11 08-14-2015, 03:12 PM

You havent bought it yet ???
Id start at 2K and be prepared to go to 3K to drive it home.

uberwasser · #12 08-14-2015, 05:05 PM

By the way, if that black dash is indeed uncracked as it seems that part alone is worth like $750 to $1000 to the right person...

Already parting it out, what can I say

Junkman · #13 08-14-2015, 05:38 PM

Are you nuts? Delete that link and go buy that car. Negotiate on price if you can but take the cash with you. There is nothing serious wrong and there is so much good that normally needs repair that you will be money ahead even if you end up installing a 617.

toomany MBZ · #14 08-15-2015, 07:08 AM

Much good advise so far.

I'll add have the valves adjusted before you make any decision on engine condition.

An Italian tune up may work wonders.

leathermang · #15 08-15-2015, 09:29 AM

I think he is out of the bidding on this car... someone else made a bid...and he is worried about where he is moving to needing a car better at integrating into traffic from on ramps....
Which I agree with... even with my good running manual trans 240 there are onramps without enough distance provided for getting up to speed before they run out...