Pulling to Right due to Springs/Suspension? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cooljjay · #16 10-11-2015, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel

Jason, thank you so very much for the reply!

Forgot about the guide rod mounts. Not sure if replaced or the lower ball joints, but Tram or I have replaced everything else, except springs, thus why considering. Sent a letter to Tram and hopefully get back. Will see about checking myself when rested (up for a snack).

Yeah you need to find out what has and hasn't been replace...As well as with what brands....In all reality nothing should be put on the front end unless it comes from Mercedes or Lemforder...

I had one of the firewall mounts that hold the torsion/sway bar take out the inside tire on my 78 in very few miles...

Junkman · #17 10-11-2015, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I would be skeptical of the idea that brand new tires are conical.

If you're referring to causing a pull, I had a set on a Datsun 280Z that steered to the same ditch no matter what position on the car any of the tires were. The shop swore it was the car and not tires. The pull went away when the tires wore out. I never bought from that shop again. Perhaps manufacturing processes have changed but I have a friend that gets surplus from a car manufacturer. He periodically gets tires in that have been rejected by the car manufacturer.

OP: Whatever wasn't replaced recently can be worn out. I would suspect rubber before springs. I bought sway bar bushings for my SD but discovered that those behind the false firewall look brand new and left them alone on the 1st SD. I'll inspect when I get that far on the other SD. All other rubber from the upper control arm down is suspect.

Likely only MB specific shops are going to have the spreader bar or centering pin. You may be able to make a pin and spreader bar but getting a local $10/hr employee at a standard follow-the-machine alignment shop to use them will be next to impossible. The good news is that I read an article by a MB shop owner that claimed that there wasn't a huge difference using the spreader bar or that being in the center of the toe setting would be acceptable even without the spreader.

I have a lifetime alignment from Firestone and can go on the machine as often as I want without more charges. They are next to worthless as far as doing any diagnosing. One time the tech was chasing his tail and gave me the car back with camber maxed out to 1 side of the car. ie both tires //. There was a note "can not be aligned". What he meant was that he couldn't align it. I'm hoping that new parts gets the front end in good enough shape that the machine results will be acceptable.

Adriel · #18 10-11-2015, 10:32 PM

Thank you so very much for the reply!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkman

OP: Whatever wasn't replaced recently can be worn out. I would suspect rubber before springs. I bought sway bar bushings for my SD but discovered that those behind the false firewall look brand new and left them alone on the 1st SD. I'll inspect when I get that far on the other SD. All other rubber from the upper control arm down is suspect.

As I said, all rubber has been replaced, except maybe the guide rod bushings and mounts. Can tell you expensive, but made a lot of difference, especially braking.

I tested the former and got about a half millimeter of play and in the latter, no more than a millimeter fore and aft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkman

Likely only MB specific shops are going to have the spreader bar or centering pin. You may be able to make a pin and spreader bar but getting a local $10/hr employee at a standard follow-the-machine alignment shop to use them will be next to impossible. The good news is that I read an article by a MB shop owner that claimed that there wasn't a huge difference using the spreader bar or that being in the center of the toe setting would be acceptable even without the spreader.

Plan is now to go in and talk to them. If refuse because don't have the spreader, or say its the age of the vehicle, will fight the charge with the Credit Union as didn't complete the service (but willing to talk).

In the future, and especially if the shop can't get right, going to the shop for Mercedes; hard lesson learned and hope others can learn from this too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkman

I have a lifetime alignment from Firestone and can go on the machine as often as I want without more charges. They are next to worthless as far as doing any diagnosing. One time the tech was chasing his tail and gave me the car back with camber maxed out to 1 side of the car. ie both tires //. There was a note "can not be aligned". What he meant was that he couldn't align it. I'm hoping that new parts gets the front end in good enough shape that the machine results will be acceptable.

As you can see, my camber is also \\ (-0.6 and +0.1).

What affect does this have?

What causes it?

Adriel · #19 10-11-2015, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooljjay

Yeah you need to find out what has and hasn't been replace...As well as with what brands....In all reality nothing should be put on the front end unless it comes from Mercedes or Lemforder...

I had one of the firewall mounts that hold the torsion/sway bar take out the inside tire on my 78 in very few miles...

Also consider wear. Some parts wear out prematurely. So, tested both, with the bushing at about half millimeter up down and the mount less than a millimeter fore and aft.

How about a Febi Germany guide rod mount that came in the box of spares? Should be decent and work for a while, right?

Junkman · #20 10-12-2015, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel

As you can see, my camber is also \\ (-0.6 and +0.1).

What affect does this have?

What causes it?

It has the effect of letting you know that the tech is an idiot and completely unfamiliar with aligning these cars.

I read 1 article that pointed out these cars (speaking of a 126, I haven't paid attention to a 123) had much more caster than other cars of the era. In fact, many machines couldn't accommodate them.

Changing caster changes camber in the same direction. Changing one of the settings (caster or camber - i forget which) results in a 1 to 1 change in the other. Changing the setting that doesn't have a 1 to 1 relationship has more than a 1 to 1 effect on the other. (I'd have to find it in the FSM to know which is which).

Techs end up chasing their tail. Suppose they set caster to perfection. Next they check and set camber. They've just screwed up the caster. I think it means that they have to anticipate the next change or you end up with both wheels tipped to 1 side.

There is a correct order which I won't look up. Ask Professor Google. You should either get your money back or have them set all adjustments to the middle of specs. There is no reason the wheels should be tipped to 1 side. All that needs to be done is loosen the nut and turn the bolt. Of course, caster will be changed in the same direction as the camber changes.

Get your money and go to a good alignment place if you have one. If there are no good places, get your money and go to Firestone and get the lifetime. Firestone has many stores and you can go onto the rack whenever you want.

Be nice because you have to talk the ignorant into doing what you want and they won't help unless they like you. They may not be able to help because of lack of skill but you want them to at least TRY and help.

Adriel · #21 10-12-2015, 12:39 PM

Went out to Brakes Plus, recommended by Discount tire across the street.

First, blamed steering box play.

Next, when said the muddy underside suggested caster was not adjusted, said can't do/don't do (depends who you talk to

) caster and has no affect on steering. I then let them know that my understanding was a full alignment, as wanted to be sure all was correct. Further, never said couldn't get proper alignment because of steering box play. I then asked for a refund... And I got it!

All I can do is laugh... A muddy underside helped seal the deal.

Especially since refunded the $50, which very happy about, as willing to split since did adjust toe.

M.B. Motors uses Jack's Alignment, however on vacation until the 20th. Do I need to get the alignment done sooner?

How about going to the dealer?

Adriel · #22 10-12-2015, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkman

It has the effect of letting you know that the tech is an idiot and completely unfamiliar with aligning these cars.

I read 1 article that pointed out these cars (speaking of a 126, I haven't paid attention to a 123) had much more caster than other cars of the era. In fact, many machines couldn't accommodate them.

Changing caster changes camber in the same direction. Changing one of the settings (caster or camber - i forget which) results in a 1 to 1 change in the other. Changing the setting that doesn't have a 1 to 1 relationship has more than a 1 to 1 effect on the other. (I'd have to find it in the FSM to know which is which).

Techs end up chasing their tail. Suppose they set caster to perfection. Next they check and set camber. They've just screwed up the caster. I think it means that they have to anticipate the next change or you end up with both wheels tipped to 1 side.

There is a correct order which I won't look up. Ask Professor Google. You should either get your money back or have them set all adjustments to the middle of specs. There is no reason the wheels should be tipped to 1 side. All that needs to be done is loosen the nut and turn the bolt. Of course, caster will be changed in the same direction as the camber changes.

Get your money and go to a good alignment place if you have one. If there are no good places, get your money and go to Firestone and get the lifetime. Firestone has many stores and you can go onto the rack whenever you want.

Be nice because you have to talk the ignorant into doing what you want and they won't help unless they like you. They may not be able to help because of lack of skill but you want them to at least TRY and help.

Okay, thank you so very much for the reply!

Now going to look for a Firestone.

Will reply longer later.

Junkman · #23 10-12-2015, 02:39 PM

Firestone Lifetimes are problematic when you can't get a decent tech. They charge about twice the price of 1 alignment but you can go on the machine any time. Normally the car drives straight but 1 of my 2 SDs has worn 2 front tires. That particular car ended up needing lower ball joints and guide rod mounts. I'm doing everything at once since the other car is now driving so nicely. I note that the car with the worn tires has been on the machine repeatedly and shouldn't have worn tires without my being notified that something was wrong. My only complaint with how the car handled was that it would follow the road crown more than a Mercedes should.

Adriel · #24 10-12-2015, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkman

Firestone Lifetimes are problematic when you can't get a decent tech. They charge about twice the price of 1 alignment but you can go on the machine any time. Normally the car drives straight but 1 of my 2 SDs has worn 2 front tires. That particular car ended up needing lower ball joints and guide rod mounts. I'm doing everything at once since the other car is now driving so nicely. I note that the car with the worn tires has been on the machine repeatedly and shouldn't have worn tires without my being notified that something was wrong. My only complaint with how the car handled was that it would follow the road crown more than a Mercedes should.

Yes, expensive, even with the $20 sale. But, the desk person talked to me for at least 20 minutes and checked the Mercedes twice (once to see if can adjust and second to check that the Brakes Plus was wrong about camber not adjustable). So, at least we were understanding each other and what is/can be done. Amazing how much customer relations affects buying decision.

I know they could get it wrong, but at least it does caster, camber, and toe. If wrong, at least can go back or go to another shop, which couldn't do before.

Apparently I was the second person to have used Brakes Minus and gone in that day to Firestone.

If the tires wear, will have the Brakes Minus to say alignment good so Discount warranty is valid.

Adriel · #25 10-12-2015, 09:28 PM

What do y'all think?

Still slight pull to the right, but better, especially since the steering wheel is strait.

Technician said pull worse when decelerating. Kind of agree. What could cause this?

leathermang · #26 10-12-2015, 10:05 PM

Ok.. have you done the new guide rods or not... ?
If not ... sure need to do that... as when you put on the brakes.. those maintain the geometry of the front wheels relative to each other...
so if they have different ' give'.. then you have pull to one side or the other....

Adriel · #27 10-12-2015, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Ok.. have you done the new guide rods or not... ?
If not ... sure need to do that... as when you put on the brakes.. those maintain the geometry of the front wheels relative to each other...
so if they have different ' give'.. then you have pull to one side or the other....

I am typing English, why can't folks understand me? Even happens when speaking. So frustrating!

As I have said at least once, brake pull went away when moving the 8/32 tire to the rear, so the front has both new tread tires. Further, also stated no difference in ply in the mounts left and right.

Pull to the right is all the time, no difference in braking. Improved over what it was.

Tram pointed out they did it for a sedan, not wagen with S.L.S.. Ah! Getting tired of this...

t walgamuth · #28 10-13-2015, 07:07 AM

A bent rear trailing arm will make it pull. I'd have someone follow me and see if the car is dog tracking. (the rear not following the front exactly).

leathermang · #29 10-13-2015, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel

I am typing English, why can't folks understand me? Even happens when speaking. So frustrating!

As I have said at least once, brake pull went away when moving the 8/32 tire to the rear, so the front has both new tread tires. Further, also stated no difference in ply in the mounts left and right.

Pull to the right is all the time, no difference in braking. Improved over what it was.

Tram pointed out they did it for a sedan, not wagen with S.L.S.. Ah! Getting tired of this...

There is a lot of narrative in this thread not specific to the problem you are complaining about...
Yes , you said at least once the brake pull went away...but now you say you have it again..... that makes fixing this easy... just undo whatever you have done which caused the brake pull to reappear ...... see how easy that was... ?????
If we accepted as fact all the subjective reports we get around here for absolute fact... many problems would go unresolved.
Are you measuring side to side movement of the track or guide rods when the important measurement is whether they are being allowed to move fore and aft by the mount being worn ?
I do not know how you would put the kind of pressure on them to properly measure that movement given how much is put on them when the car and its brakes reaction are at play. So as a general rule if the guide rod bearing has play it needs to be replaced.
Remember that it is possible to have more than one problem start up at about the same time... or while correcting another problem...
When were the front wheel bearings and the brakes calipers serviced last ?

Adriel · #30 10-13-2015, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

There is a lot of narrative in this thread not specific to the problem you are complaining about...
Yes , you said at least once the brake pull went away...but now you say you have it again..... that makes fixing this easy... just undo whatever you have done which caused the brake pull to reappear ...... see how easy that was... ?????
If we accepted as fact all the subjective reports we get around here for absolute fact... many problems would go unresolved.
Are you measuring side to side movement of the track or guide rods when the important measurement is whether they are being allowed to move fore and aft by the mount being worn ?
I do not know how you would put the kind of pressure on them to properly measure that movement given how much is put on them when the car and its brakes reaction are at play. So as a general rule if the guide rod bearing has play it needs to be replaced.
Remember that it is possible to have more than one problem start up at about the same time... or while correcting another problem...
When were the front wheel bearings and the brakes calipers serviced last ?

Guess I am not being clear. To me, the difference between braking and decelerating is clear: former brakes applied and the latter when the foot feed is let off. So, with Brakes Minus, it was when braking and after Firestone it is when the foot feed is removed.

So, again, will summarize. Went to Discount to get two new tires because the inner edges were down to the fabric cord (no wear on rear at all). They then sent me across the street to Brakes Minus who did an alignment. Technician came back from test drive and said steering wheel was strait and no pull. He had lied to me. When applying the brakes, pulled hard to the right, enough to change lanes. So, went back and said worn components. When that B.S. didn't work, sent me back to Discount. They skipped the line for me since already there and put the 12/32 front left and the 8/32 right front strait back on the rear. The front then got 12/32 tires on both sides. The brake pull went completely away, with a lot of the pull, but didn't center the steering wheel. Got on the Peach and said needed to talk to Brakes Minus. So called Monday and said they fix it. came in, got a different person, he looked at the Mercedes, and said the steering box was too loose. Not sure which B.S. came first: can't do the alignment because the box too loose or that they only do toe adjustment. Told him I was of the understanding do full alignments and had no issues with doing it and since now different, wanted a refund. I figured say no, we split the cost since did do toe, but he refunded the whole amount! :O Then per Junkman's insistence, went to Firestone and got their lifetime alignment, in case wrong and in case replaced a suspension component(s). After the Firestone alignment, the steering wheel is strait, the pull to the right is reduced, but still there. The technician said more when decelerating (not braking as before) and kind of agree.

Now, do you still think brakes? How about the axels?

As for testing movement in the suspension, I am using a very large pry tool per the factory.

Fronts done Spring 2012 and rears 2010 per Tram. Spring 2012 be about 130,000 miles, plus or minus 20,000 miles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

A bent rear trailing arm will make it pull. I'd have someone follow me and see if the car is dog tracking. (the rear not following the front exactly).

Thank you so very much!

Well, trick is finding this friend... Especially that knows what to look for.

How about the rear axel as suggest by Firestone?