Pulling to Right due to Springs/Suspension? - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

leathermang · #46 10-13-2015, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel

.... So, to confirm, replacing the idler bushing I should have gotten an alignment?.....

Perhaps not a total alignment ..which does little good if all parts are not pretty much new..
BUT certainly a TOE IN....

Replacing any component in the steering system of the car requires at least a TOE IN...
or you wear out tires post haste. As you have already experienced...

Adriel · #47 10-13-2015, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

The concept of ' toe in' ....
there are various amounts of play in the items which hold the wheels aligned towards the front of the car....
Toe In is the amount of compensation set when the car is static .... so that when the wheel are rotating and try to move outwards they wind up being straight at speed...
So small amounts of play ..... perhaps in more than one steering part.... may add up to needing more of that compensation put in at rest to allow the wheels to be straight at speed...
So the amount of toe in needs to be matched to the amount of cumulative play in those steering parts...
In my opinion one can not set the toe in without the measuring of the distance between the front wheels..... I do not know what a ' spreader bar' is.. I used an aluminum 1 inch square tube the last time I did my own.
The instructions for setting the toe in are in the FSM.
It includes having the steering parts in good shape...
having the tires at proper inflation.
Marking the tires on the tread.
rolling the car to get any ' set ' out of the tire.
and setting the direction the tires are pointing relative to each others with the tie rod adjustment tool to allow for that tendency of the tires move outwards when spinning.
There are some cars where the tie rods control the steering from the other end of the tire and thus require toe out adjustment...

Thank you so very much for the reply!

Okay, I was looking and found this: W123 Lemforder Guide Rod mounts poorly made

So, should I go with Mercedes then, correct?

Okay, that explains why the pull after Brakes Minus alignment was worse at freeway speed! Now I am getting it!

Then, why do I have pull when the toe is set correctly, as you can see? Is it because the guide rod is moving more than it should?

As for toe, said don't need a spreader. Should I insist on it?

If the mounts are bad, then why would the bushings be still good?

If I was going to be anal as it seems you suggest, I should replace them. If I am doing that, springs have to be out, so why not replace the pads? If I replace the front pads, how about the rear? I sense a can of worms is being opened...

Do the guide rod mounts affect caster/camber, which isn't quite right?

Adriel · #48 10-13-2015, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

bad Alignment can cause pulling to one side..
Torsion bar bushings should not affect the car AT ALL when on level ground..
only in turns or uneven bumps because the torsion bar is a ' relative position ' of the wheels part...

Okay.

So then caster/camber not set right is a "bad" alignment?

Adriel · #49 10-13-2015, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Perhaps not a total alignment ..which does little good if all parts are not pretty much new..
BUT certainly a TOE IN....

Replacing any component in the steering system of the car requires at least a TOE IN...
or you wear out tires post haste. As you have already experienced...

Okay, that certainly will not be a very painful lesson that I will not forget.

Now the prior has been resolved, how about the present, please?

leathermang · #50 10-13-2015, 05:08 PM

' now the prior has been resolved' ....LOL.... we are still in the prior until your car tracks straight down the road..
I think you are too trusting of the Toe In from some of these places...
How do you know if the Toe In was correct given the pull to the right has persisted through several changes in the situation ?

Certainly if the caster and camber are not set properly that is a bad alignment... but a good alignment has to include a proper Toe In... which is actually the most important factor in what you FEEL with your hands...and where the car goes when you take your hands off the wheel...a small amount of right hand drift will occur on a properly set alignment on most roads due to their Crowning ... for water run off... but in a smooth parking lot it should track straight...

The Guide Rods tend to be a ' fore and aft' movement... resulting in bad feedback when the brakes are applied... letting one wheel move due to brake reaction force more than the other side...
I am still suspicious of the play in the tie rod ends.. PLUS the relation the setting of the Toe In has to the amount of play they have.... if the idler arm was that worn out.. did you check for the bearing on the arm which comes down from the steering box ?

By ' pads' I assume you are referring to the brake pads ? As compared to the rubber pads for the springs ? Yes on both accounts...

Adriel · #51 10-13-2015, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

' now the prior has been resolved' ....LOL.... we are still in the prior until your car tracks straight down the road..
I think you are too trusting of the Toe In from some of these places...
How do you know if the Toe In was correct given the pull to the right has persisted through several changes in the situation ?

Thank you so very much for the reply!

Prior, meaning before the first alignment. We are now talking about the second alignment, which at present is causing a light pull to the right when decelerating.

Trust toe as within the specifications of the F.S.M., at least for a sedan. I am willing to go back, but not twice. Meaning, if the mount needs replacing, rather replace that first. If it doesn't, then will go in. It takes two hours, so thus my hesitation.

I am also fairly confidant because the steering wheel is strait and tracks strait unless let off the foot feed. I have not had a chance to take out on the freeway, but if you need this today, can make it happen.

Tom said that this characteristic means something, but now what it means. Do you know? You certainly seem qualified.

leathermang · #52 10-13-2015, 05:26 PM

I am not qualified ... I am making this all up just to provide entertainment value for the members of the forum.... but I appreciate you thinking I am qualified... an indicator I am doing a good job Entertaining.
LOL

UNLESS your entire front end is BRAND NEW.... and also set properly in terms of Camber and Castor...
ONLY then is the spec from the FSM for Toe In meaningful...
OTHERWISE what counts is that it matches the cumulative play which exists IN your CAR at the time you drive it from the shop...

Are you saying they did not use any measuring rod across the front of the car at the front of the wheels to compare them at two different positions.. meaning they rolled the car forward to take out the any ' set ' which might be there ?

leathermang · #53 10-13-2015, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel

.....Prior, meaning before the first alignment. We are now talking about the second alignment, which at present is causing a light pull to the right when decelerating.....
I am also fairly confidant because the steering wheel is strait and tracks strait unless let off the foot feed. I have not had a chance to take out on the freeway, but if you need this today, can make it happen.

Tom said that this characteristic means something, but now what it means. Do you know? You certainly seem qualified.

OK... so the car does NOT veer right UNLESS you take your foot off the throttle pedal... Only on a motorcycle with a driveshaft would I expect torque steer reaction like that....the opposite direction from when it was accelerating .... If that is the case... I can not guess what might cause it..
Sorry.

tram · #54 10-13-2015, 05:36 PM

Adriel:

1. They guys here are correct; alignment does not just "go out"- something wears or bends to cause it.

2. That said, you need to eliminate brakes and tires completely first as a source of your issue.

3. Radial tire pull is real. It did not become extinct in the 1970s.

4. BUT- all the absolutely basic things must first be correct- foremost among them is tire pressure and ride height.

Now-
1.Switch the tires side to side in the front and rear. Check and adjust air pressure.
2. Put the front wheels in the air and spin. Does one side have even a slight bit more drag than the other? how are the pads wearing?
3. Ditto the rear.

Road test the car with the pressure adjusted and tires swapped side to side and report back with your findings.

Let's eliminate possibilities one by one.

Adriel · #55 10-13-2015, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

I am not qualified ... I am making this all up just to provide entertainment value for the members of the forum.... but I appreciate you thinking I am qualified... an indicator I am doing a good job Entertaining.
LOL

UNLESS your entire front end is BRAND NEW.... and also set properly in terms of Camber and Castor...
ONLY then is the spec from the FSM for Toe In meaningful...
OTHERWISE what counts is that it matches the cumulative play which exists IN your CAR at the time you drive it from the shop...

Are you saying they did not use any measuring rod across the front of the car at the front of the wheels to compare them at two different positions.. meaning they rolled the car forward to take out the any ' set ' which might be there ?

Thank you so very much for the reply!

Bahh, you have fooled me wolf.

L.O.L.

Okay then, will get moving on replacing at least the mounts.

I meant toe spreader. Not sure about the other...

Adriel · #56 10-13-2015, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

OK... so the car does NOT veer right UNLESS you take your foot off the throttle pedal... Only on a motorcycle with a driveshaft would I expect torque steer reaction like that....the opposite direction from when it was accelerating .... If that is the case... I can not guess what might cause it..
Sorry.

Okay, thank you for your honesty, much appreciated!

leathermang · #57 10-13-2015, 05:41 PM

And concerning Tom asking that same question.... I suspect that was due to it being such a strange symptom... not that he knew the reason for it and is withholding that information.... it is very strange ...

Adriel · #58 10-13-2015, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tram

Adriel:

1. They guys here are correct; alignment does not just "go out"- something wears or bends to cause it.

2. That said, you need to eliminate brakes and tires completely first as a source of your issue.

3. Radial tire pull is real. It did not become extinct in the 1970s.

4. BUT- all the absolutely basic things must first be correct- foremost among them is tire pressure and ride height.

Now-
1.Switch the tires side to side in the front and rear. Check and adjust air pressure.
2. Put the front wheels in the air and spin. Does one side have even a slight bit more drag than the other? how are the pads wearing?
3. Ditto the rear.

Road test the car with the pressure adjusted and tires swapped side to side and report back with your findings.

Let's eliminate possibilities one by one.

Tram, so amazed you have joined the fun!

Wondered where you had gone.

Okay, will get on it once had a bite. Time to eat per the rules.

Will an old stick pressure gauge work? Know my dial one is off. I found a great one, was waiting until had the bread, and now can't find it... All I want is something made in the U.S.A. that is accurate.

Adriel · #59 10-13-2015, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

And concerning Tom asking that same question.... I suspect that was due to it being such a strange symptom... not that he knew the reason for it and is withholding that information.... it is very strange ...

Okay. Bummer...

leathermang · #60 10-13-2015, 05:43 PM

Tell me what you mean by a ' toe spreader' ???
Is that what you describe the measuring rod from wheel to wheel to be ?