That's exactly what I said. The SBC will have a constant message on in the cluster. The driver can ignore it and press the steering wheel buttons to go past it.

The second message Will turn on all sort of idiot lights plus beeping. The idiot lights remain on for the entire duration of the car is on. Even if a shop was to clear code it will come back right away and beep again. Brake light, abs traction control light, check engine light, and a drive carefully message shows up in the cluster.

At the end, sbc goes to a shut down after car is stopped, and if you turn it on, limp home mode and very loud beeping, plus no brakes.

Like I said, the driver has to be blind, deaf, and especially stupid to ignore all the warning messages.

From the information Deplore provided, there is plenty of warning IF THE SYSTEM IS REACHING AN END OF LIFE COUNTER SHUTDOWN. As with any system, a random component failure may or may not give any warning before failure.

Think of it this way, tires have tread depth wear bars. When tread depth is low, they signal it is time to replace the tire. This is the same as the SBC white fix it warnings.

If you keep driving, eventually all of the tread rubber will be worn off and the casing will develop a hole or blow out. This is similar to the SBC going red and shutting off except the shutdown is planned and done safely before a blow out can occur. ( RE SBC shuts down at the next key cycle )

If you have a new tire and hit a piece of metal causing a puncture, this is the same as the SBC having a sudden unannounced component failure.

Now, here is where is gets somewhat messy, if the SBC is in white mode and there is a random component failure, the owner may think there was a timed shutdown when in reality it was a random component failure. RE: If the system was not in white mode the subject of timed shutdown would not enter the picture.

Yes, it is apparent through testing that MB and Bosch determined the SBC will last X amount of time and most units fail past that point making replacement a requirement for safe operation. This is called " Lifing a part " The practice of recording operational hours and replacing parts before they fail is commonplace in the aircraft industry. Race cars do the same and I do the same with road cars under my care to reduce the number of unannounced breakdowns.

The car does go into SBC limp mode reverting to unassisted front brakes only operation. I do not know if the system goes into reduced engine power mode or not.

The timed shutdown is "You WILL maintain your vehicle on our schedule, " ( with ample warning ) If you choose to ignore the long term warning, any harm that comes to you is by your choice.

My worn brake pad example was in reference to a driver ignoring red SBC shutdown warnings and continuing to drive not the actual amount of braking force available.

Not counting component failure, and if I can dismiss the claims on this thread of unreliable advance warnings, and the SBC system does operate exactly as you say it's supposed to, I can remove some of my objections. However, with aircraft and racecars, don't the required maintenance schedules still leave it up to the operator to perform the required services, without a computer actually shutting down functioning, vital systems?
In the case of SBC, if it's so important to shut it down when a preset maintenance limit is reached, I still believe it should also immobilize the vehicle, or at least limit operation to a very low speed (on this thread, there seems to be some uncertainty about this point), as they do with the diesel Ad-Blue fluid systems.

Happy Motoring, Mark

__________________
DrDKW

It's statements like this that make me realize you don't have first hand knowledge of an SBC failure.

This is a 2-page thread that has blossomed into 7 pages due to conjecture.

__________________
Mark in MA
05 MB E320CDI 402k Granite Grey Metallic
05 MB E320CDI 267k Black
05 MB E320CDI 232k White
05 MB E320CDI 209k Tectite Grey
99 Dodge 2500 Cummins 5sp 148k
62 Jeep CJ-6 120k

That's exactly what I said. The SBC will have a constant message on in the cluster. The driver can ignore it and press the steering wheel buttons to go past it.

The second message Will turn on all sort of idiot lights plus beeping. The idiot lights remain on for the entire duration of the car is on. Even if a shop was to clear code it will come back right away and beep again. Brake light, abs traction control light, check engine light, and a drive carefully message shows up in the cluster.

At the end, sbc goes to a shut down after car is stopped, and if you turn it on, limp home mode and very loud beeping, plus no brakes.

Like I said, the driver has to be blind, deaf, and especially stupid to ignore all the warning messages.

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that some drivers have relayed NO WARNING MESSAGE save the red message which occurs at the moment the SBC failure occurs. ??? This is why the thread goes on; if you get plenty of advance notice then it's only a dummy driver to blame when his/her daughter crashes the car and dies because the SBC failed. However if - as relayed by a sizable amount of drivers- there is no white warning and only a red warning AT THE MOMENT OF FAILURE-then obviously there is a valid issue.

For whatever reason my quote function does not work.

Where on earth did you get that? Let me quote myself again:

I didn't rule it out of hand. In a normally functioning system, it gives you advance notice. Anything is possible on these cars. ECU can fry, engine dies at 180km/h, you lose power steering, power braking, etc.

Water ingress in TCU by the passenger SAM can lock the transmission in 2nd, and if you were traveling at 80mph, well, transmission might grenade itself.

The engineers who design these system can't account for every act of god -- though they do try. C'mon now, are you trying to get me to say that sudden failure doesn't happen? Of course it does. As a mechanic, I have seen a lot of sudden failure cars roll into my shop, and in almost every single case, it was a result of an outside force, or a freak 1 in a million chance or an act of god.

I had a 05 corvette come to my shop. Drove fine, idled perfectly, absolutely no issue. Only when you got to 75mph, the engine dies. No exception. No warning.74mph, you're fine. 75mph, poof. Culprit? Squirrel ate most of the wiring harness insulation in the firewall (we still aren't sure how it got in) and the wind pressure from outside at 75 would short it, leading to engine shut down.

You tell me that GM engineers planned for that.

Now if you were to tell me it's a stupid idea to have a brake by wire system that has am ineffectual backup system? Yes it is. There's a reason why the second generation W211 doesn't have it, and it's not only due to volume of customer complaint. Obviously mother MB is not telling us why they removed it...

...But the current SL and SLR and other very high end MB supercar still have SBC. That tells you something. What is the message? I have no idea. Maybe you can tell me.

Given the ineffectual backup, it's also a stupid idea to have a working SBC system shut itself down needlessly, solely because the engineers decided to enforce maintenance that way. Need I say more.

Happy Motoring, Mark

__________________
DrDKW

I personally think it's because of liability issues, not because it's to enforce maintenance.

If the brakes are programmed to stop working, without a reliable advance warning, what could be more of a liability issue!

Happy Motoring, Mark

__________________
DrDKW

Imagine this in a court of law:

"So you knowingly sold a car equipped with a brake system, the so called SBC system, that is rated for so many actuations...and then did not install a fail safe system in the event that the owner drives the car past the number of actuations, leading to catastrophic brake failure?"

"Well, yes, but--"

"And the owner is not informed properly that this is a critical safety component and should be serviced on a regular basis?"

"Yes, but--"

"And then lives are lost in the event of sudden SBC failure due to your negligence to properly educate your buyers as to what they are buying! Is that what your company wanted?"

--


It might be callous of me to say it, but I think MB cares more about a lawsuit than a few lives...that's why they installed the whole white and red warning messages and planned shut down...it's to cover their asses. "Your honor, we are not liable for any loss of life because the owner chose to ignore the advance notice." To a corporation with revenue in the billions, a few million dollars in fines is cheaper than retrofitting all affected cars or redesigning the system for better redundant backups in event of failure...We've seen this in action with GM and their faulty ignition switch, Toyota and their "sticking" accelerator pedal, Ford and their firestone tires, and so on... and that sucks for the little guy at the bottom.

I feel for the other dude with sudden SBC failure. I really do. I think the backup system is idiotic. But I also think that if a car is well taken care of, it will take care of you in return. Maintain the system, plan the service of SBC in the same way you plan the transmission oil change or differential, and you'll never be surprised.

I am not saying that this guy with the sudden failed SBC was negligent of his car -- he's on this forum. He knows cars, and (I assume) maintains his own car in a proper fashion like most of us. I think his sudden SBC failure was due to some freak accident or 1 in a million chance. Given that I have so little information about his situation, all I can do is speculate like an arm chair mechanic.

There are numerous reports of SBC shutdown without prior warning here. Home | Safercar -- National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

File a complaint about the possibility of loss of braking power.

John

__________________
Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA)
2002 F250 powerstroke with Plantdrive WVO conversion
1983 300SD 190K miles ,sold
2006 E320 CDI

But the brakes _ARE NOT_ programmed to shut off _in flight_ after the pedal has been pressed X times.

Why do you have such a hard time accepting that? Why are you mixing:

" The SBC has X amount of service life, you will get 2 white and a red service warning, at this point we deem the SBC too unreliable to continue and it will shut down next key cycle. "

with

" A random component failure in flight that no one can predict resulting in a shut down "

From my prior post

"" So, around 58 to 75 % expected SBC life, a white warning is issued, another white issued again at about 83% of life. When the counter hits 100% of life, the system issues a red warning and locks out. I would not expect the system to stop functioning in flight due to a life limit counter. Do you have documentation that once the counter hits a certain point the system locks out in flight? ""

Throughout this thread is is becoming apparent what political party people vote for ( I need big govt and its regulations to keep me safe because it is always someone else's fault Vs I see a white warning then a red do not drive this car warning and exert personal responsibility by not continuing to drive the car. )

I can only make a judgment based on the assortment of responses I've seen on this thread, which have been all over the map. Not all have reported the SBC performing to your scenario. Nor have the many unhappy Mercedes customers that I read about, when I Googled Mercedes SBC.
To me, it's a significant indication that the SBC system has some serious flaws since Mercedes has now deleted it on some of it's more recent models.

Not counting any random, unpredictable component failures, and assuming, as you say, the programmed SBC shutdown NEVER occurs 'in flight', I still believe the system should have been better designed, including -
an adequate backup system, and an advance RED warning and beeper that comes on, say at about 95%, and stays on up to, and after, SBC shutdown.
If an adequate backup system is NOT possible with the SBC, an immobilizer or limp-mode should be activated.
We don't need bigger government. Just tell the auto manufacturers to stop shoving overly complicated electronic systems down our throats, or at least not until they work out the flaws. If they can't do that, then that's what NHTSA is for.
Personally, I believe it was indeed "idiotic" to design the SBC without an adequate backup system!

Happy Motoring, Mark

__________________
DrDKW

Linking this to another SBC thread with some one that got white then red lockout.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3553903

Some guy over on Benzworld just posted on his experience of SBC failure. No white warning messages....went straight to red.

SBC hydraulic unit warranty about to expire, failure symptoms? - Mercedes-Benz Forum Post #64

__________________
14 E250 Bluetec "Sinclair", Palladium Silver on Black, 153k miles
06 E320 CDI "Rutherford", Black on Tan, 171k mi, Stage 1 tune, tuned TCU
91 300D "Otis", Smoke Silver, 142k mi, wastegate conversion

19 Honda CR-V EX 61k mi
Fourteen other MB's owned and sold
1961 Very Tolerant Wife